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	<title>Comments on: Third Party&#8217;s Future Failure</title>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22409</link>
		<dc:creator>Atanamis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:07:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22409</guid>
		<description>June:
IRV is not significantly better than plurality voting, while being more confusing to the voter. Ideal known voting systems would be either Approval or Ranked Pairs. 

IRV (compared to Approval) adds:
Clone independence (identical candidates don&#039;t hurt each other)
Condorcet loser (candidate losing individually against all others loses)

At the cost of:
Monotone (candidate can&#039;t be hurt by voters voting for them)
Consistency (candidate who wins two halves wins the whole)
Participation (is participating honestly always better than not voting)

Honestly, I prefer the current plurality system to the failings of IRV, which I view as more dangerous.

Cchrisr:
&lt;blockquote&gt;If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I agree. My point was similar to Colin&#039;s, that &quot;with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the “lesser of two evils” mentality&quot;. Ideologically, it is absolutely essential that parties greater than 2 be such that they can form alliances with multiple other parties, otherwise they will simply be marginalized or merged into the party they agree with the most. This is achievable with only 3 parties if the third party bounces back and forth, but would be far more stable in the kind of 4 party structure you described.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>June:<br />
IRV is not significantly better than plurality voting, while being more confusing to the voter. Ideal known voting systems would be either Approval or Ranked Pairs. </p>
<p>IRV (compared to Approval) adds:<br />
Clone independence (identical candidates don&#8217;t hurt each other)<br />
Condorcet loser (candidate losing individually against all others loses)</p>
<p>At the cost of:<br />
Monotone (candidate can&#8217;t be hurt by voters voting for them)<br />
Consistency (candidate who wins two halves wins the whole)<br />
Participation (is participating honestly always better than not voting)</p>
<p>Honestly, I prefer the current plurality system to the failings of IRV, which I view as more dangerous.</p>
<p>Cchrisr:</p>
<blockquote><p>If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree. My point was similar to Colin&#8217;s, that &#8220;with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the “lesser of two evils” mentality&#8221;. Ideologically, it is absolutely essential that parties greater than 2 be such that they can form alliances with multiple other parties, otherwise they will simply be marginalized or merged into the party they agree with the most. This is achievable with only 3 parties if the third party bounces back and forth, but would be far more stable in the kind of 4 party structure you described.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Why Health Insurance? - Robert Blumen - Mises Economics Blog &#124; Insurance Finance Wisdom</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22363</link>
		<dc:creator>Why Health Insurance? - Robert Blumen - Mises Economics Blog &#124; Insurance Finance Wisdom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 09:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22363</guid>
		<description>[...] Third Party&#039;s Future Failure at Zeal For Truth [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Third Party&#39;s Future Failure at Zeal For Truth [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: June</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22355</link>
		<dc:creator>June</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 15:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22355</guid>
		<description>The good news is that our current governmental fiscal crises have breathed new life into the electoral reform movement because it can save money.  Even Los Angeles is now seriously considering replacing their multi-election runoff system with Instant-Runoff-Voting.  Most people in the electoral reform movement consider IRV a first step toward proportional representation.  For more information on electoral reform please visit www.fairvote.org or if you happen to be in CA visit www.cfer.org (Californians for Electoral Reform).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The good news is that our current governmental fiscal crises have breathed new life into the electoral reform movement because it can save money.  Even Los Angeles is now seriously considering replacing their multi-election runoff system with Instant-Runoff-Voting.  Most people in the electoral reform movement consider IRV a first step toward proportional representation.  For more information on electoral reform please visit <a href="http://www.fairvote.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.fairvote.org</a> or if you happen to be in CA visit <a href="http://www.cfer.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.cfer.org</a> (Californians for Electoral Reform).</p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22348</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:35:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22348</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;These 4 parties would be split so that one could see two left parties and two right parties, however there are enough ideological beliefs in the four so that there exists a tangible regular alliance across the left-right distinction (e.g. along the lines of government size which would see both left anarchists and right libertarians side together).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is dead on. And I *hope* it is happening now. I spent a lot of time in the conservative movement moving out further and further to the &quot;right&quot; until I now believe I am equidistant from centre right and left (if political ideology is a circle). I have found just as much affinity with the radical left as I have the radical right. Browse wikipedia on &quot;anarchism&quot; and it is clear that this is the point where left/right politics becomes very confusing and there is a great deal of overlap.

I think the four party concept is a good course, basically creating four sets of divisions and alliances:

left/right
authoritarian/libertarian

One would think that this would provide a better check on the ideology of government in a democracy. If it shifts too far authoritarian, then the libertarian alliance (left-libertarian and right-libertarian) forms. If it shifts too far right, then the left alliance forms (libertarian-left, authoritarian-left).

Unfortunately, I think with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the &quot;lesser of two evils&quot; mentality. However, ideologically, I think we are getting there even now. The presidency of GW Bush has awakened a large amount of the libertarian-right. Obama is just the kind of president to awaken the libertarian-left.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>These 4 parties would be split so that one could see two left parties and two right parties, however there are enough ideological beliefs in the four so that there exists a tangible regular alliance across the left-right distinction (e.g. along the lines of government size which would see both left anarchists and right libertarians side together).</p></blockquote>
<p>This is dead on. And I *hope* it is happening now. I spent a lot of time in the conservative movement moving out further and further to the &#8220;right&#8221; until I now believe I am equidistant from centre right and left (if political ideology is a circle). I have found just as much affinity with the radical left as I have the radical right. Browse wikipedia on &#8220;anarchism&#8221; and it is clear that this is the point where left/right politics becomes very confusing and there is a great deal of overlap.</p>
<p>I think the four party concept is a good course, basically creating four sets of divisions and alliances:</p>
<p>left/right<br />
authoritarian/libertarian</p>
<p>One would think that this would provide a better check on the ideology of government in a democracy. If it shifts too far authoritarian, then the libertarian alliance (left-libertarian and right-libertarian) forms. If it shifts too far right, then the left alliance forms (libertarian-left, authoritarian-left).</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the &#8220;lesser of two evils&#8221; mentality. However, ideologically, I think we are getting there even now. The presidency of GW Bush has awakened a large amount of the libertarian-right. Obama is just the kind of president to awaken the libertarian-left.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22347</link>
		<dc:creator>cchrisr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 21:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22347</guid>
		<description>If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies. That&#039;s for a different breed of human. Thankfully, one commenter was very clear in expressing the ideology I was exposing:
&lt;blockquote&gt;So long as my vote for a third party causes my “worst choice” to happen, I’ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I’d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies. That&#8217;s for a different breed of human. Thankfully, one commenter was very clear in expressing the ideology I was exposing:</p>
<blockquote><p>So long as my vote for a third party causes my “worst choice” to happen, I’ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I’d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.</p></blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22345</link>
		<dc:creator>Atanamis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 20:48:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22345</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s nice to see that the author is beginning to contemplate party mechanics, but he is still in the very early stages of this thought process. Jasen has a far deeper understanding of the causes of our current party system, and why other nations have differing systems. &quot;First past the post&quot; (plurality) voting systems will always tend toward a two party system. So long as my vote for a third party causes my &quot;worst choice&quot; to happen, I&#039;ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I&#039;d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.

Block systems work fine if votes are dispersed proportionally. If 5% of the voters voted third party, that would be 22 members in the House of Representatives. There, those candidates could lobby for their third party&#039;s interests, negotiating with two major parties. For example, they might agree to a war spending bill in exchange for drug legalization. Both major parties might oppose drug legalization, but one might be willing to allow it to get their war spending bill passed.

First past the post makes achieving second place worthless and third place a spoiler. Anyone voting for the third place guy who also liked the second place guy hurt their own view by voting their conscience. Even in situations where there is only one position (US President, for example), it would be more fair to allow the tertiary candidates to &quot;assign&quot; votes they won based on negotiation with the leading candidates. That way if neither candidate wins a straight majority, my third party cause still gets some value from my having voted for them. What this actually does is move back toward the original intent of the electoral college, where the people voted for electors they trusted to negotiate well for the eventual candidate. Of course, this would again require electoral votes to be assigned proportionally, rather than first past the post in each state as is currently done. Third parties simply aren&#039;t logical in a first past the post system.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s nice to see that the author is beginning to contemplate party mechanics, but he is still in the very early stages of this thought process. Jasen has a far deeper understanding of the causes of our current party system, and why other nations have differing systems. &#8220;First past the post&#8221; (plurality) voting systems will always tend toward a two party system. So long as my vote for a third party causes my &#8220;worst choice&#8221; to happen, I&#8217;ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I&#8217;d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.</p>
<p>Block systems work fine if votes are dispersed proportionally. If 5% of the voters voted third party, that would be 22 members in the House of Representatives. There, those candidates could lobby for their third party&#8217;s interests, negotiating with two major parties. For example, they might agree to a war spending bill in exchange for drug legalization. Both major parties might oppose drug legalization, but one might be willing to allow it to get their war spending bill passed.</p>
<p>First past the post makes achieving second place worthless and third place a spoiler. Anyone voting for the third place guy who also liked the second place guy hurt their own view by voting their conscience. Even in situations where there is only one position (US President, for example), it would be more fair to allow the tertiary candidates to &#8220;assign&#8221; votes they won based on negotiation with the leading candidates. That way if neither candidate wins a straight majority, my third party cause still gets some value from my having voted for them. What this actually does is move back toward the original intent of the electoral college, where the people voted for electors they trusted to negotiate well for the eventual candidate. Of course, this would again require electoral votes to be assigned proportionally, rather than first past the post in each state as is currently done. Third parties simply aren&#8217;t logical in a first past the post system.</p>
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		<title>By: Rob</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22342</link>
		<dc:creator>Rob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22342</guid>
		<description>I gave up on your &quot;analysis&quot; after the third paragraph.  If you think that Newt Gingrich is a &quot;libertarian&quot;, or that he is in any way comparable to Ron Paul, you really do not know what you are talking about.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I gave up on your &#8220;analysis&#8221; after the third paragraph.  If you think that Newt Gingrich is a &#8220;libertarian&#8221;, or that he is in any way comparable to Ron Paul, you really do not know what you are talking about.</p>
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		<title>By: Jasen Tracy</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/comment-page-1/#comment-22341</link>
		<dc:creator>Jasen Tracy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Oct 2009 18:36:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comment-22341</guid>
		<description>The U.S. is a two party country because of the first past the post election system, and possible secondarily because of the Presidential (as opposed to parliamentary) system. The European countries with legitimate third parties tend to have a sort of proportional representation (Germany, Italy) or a run-off system (France).  The U.K  with a parlimentary system and first past the post is a 2.5 party system.

Canada is alot like the U.K. with a regional (Bloc) added for a 3.5 party system.  A regional party can work in a parliamentary system because they have a chance to have power in a coalition government.  Of course, someone could argue that the 2 U.S. parties are already coalitions formed before the election instead of after like what happens in parliamentary systems.     

The Libertarians (I hope you didn&#039;t mean Newt for an example) do seemed to have drifted to the right lately (emphasizing their gun rights and fiscal concerns to the damage of their traditional social rights issues), which I think is a mistake.  If that&#039;s what they want they should just be Republicans.  Libertarians were never meant to be center or anywhere on
the American left/right axis, they were supposed to be off the axis altogether.  

Perhaps the best chance to have an influential third part in recent years was the Reform Party, though it failed to amount to anything without Perot.  It they had managed to pick up the anti-free trade voters that the Democrats abandoned with Clinton&#039;s move to the center, it may have been able to have a base.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The U.S. is a two party country because of the first past the post election system, and possible secondarily because of the Presidential (as opposed to parliamentary) system. The European countries with legitimate third parties tend to have a sort of proportional representation (Germany, Italy) or a run-off system (France).  The U.K  with a parlimentary system and first past the post is a 2.5 party system.</p>
<p>Canada is alot like the U.K. with a regional (Bloc) added for a 3.5 party system.  A regional party can work in a parliamentary system because they have a chance to have power in a coalition government.  Of course, someone could argue that the 2 U.S. parties are already coalitions formed before the election instead of after like what happens in parliamentary systems.     </p>
<p>The Libertarians (I hope you didn&#8217;t mean Newt for an example) do seemed to have drifted to the right lately (emphasizing their gun rights and fiscal concerns to the damage of their traditional social rights issues), which I think is a mistake.  If that&#8217;s what they want they should just be Republicans.  Libertarians were never meant to be center or anywhere on<br />
the American left/right axis, they were supposed to be off the axis altogether.  </p>
<p>Perhaps the best chance to have an influential third part in recent years was the Reform Party, though it failed to amount to anything without Perot.  It they had managed to pick up the anti-free trade voters that the Democrats abandoned with Clinton&#8217;s move to the center, it may have been able to have a base.</p>
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			<div id="post-534" class="post-534 post type-post hentry category-politics tag-centrist tag-democrat tag-ideology tag-left-right-politics tag-libertarian tag-political-spectrum tag-republican tag-third-party p1 y2009 m10 d20 h02">
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						<a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to Third Party&#8217;s Future Failure">Third Party&#8217;s Future Failure</a>
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						Written by <span class="vcard author entry-author"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/author/cchrisr/" class="url fn" title="View all posts by Christopher Roussel">Christopher Roussel</a></span>. Published on <abbr class="published entry-date" title="2009-10-20T07:00:35+0000">October 20, 2009 ago</abbr> in <span class="entry-categories"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/category/politics/" title="View all posts in Politics">Politics</a></span>. <span class="entry-comments"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2009/10/third-partys-future-failure/#comments" class="commentslink"  title="Comment on Third Party&#8217;s Future Failure">7 <span>Comments</span></a></span>					</div> <!-- .entry-meta -->

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										<p>There is growing support for a third political party in the US. However, because of ideological reasons, it will never survive. Well, perhaps I shouldn&#8217;t say the particular party will not survive but that the concept of three parties will never survive in the US.</p>
<p>Because of the emphasis of the two-party right/left divide, there can be only two parties. A third party may replace an existing party, but the only possibility there is of three political parties in the US political landscape would be if they divided along similar ideological lines (i.e. a &#8216;left&#8217;, &#8216;centre&#8217;, and &#8216;right&#8217;). In the remainder of this article, I will use this spectrum to hash out two generic examples of why a third party will always (ultimately) fail. I will use current popular third parties as exemplars of their position in the spectrum.</p>
<p><strong>In the Centre<br />
</strong>My first example is best witnessed in the <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/libertarian/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with libertarian">Libertarian</a> Party. Along the American spectrum, its recent invocations (the past 20 years or so) have fallen around the centre-right area. When they masquerade in the two big parties, they are almost exclusively Republicans who happen to vote against their party at times (e.g. Ron Paul, Newt Gingrich). In fact, because of this positioning, they sometimes have difficulty separating themselves from the GOP. If they were to become a major political party, they would continue to occupy the centre of the spectrum, likely fighting the GOP for votes and members.</p>
<p>As a result of this tension, two scenarios are likely: a simple replacement of the incumbent right-side party (e.g. GOP) with the new (e.g. Libertarians) or a distancing of the two with one (Libertarians here) moving closer to the centre and the other (Republicans here) moving further right. However, a centre-right party will not be able to gain many votes/members from the left side of the spectrum, which means any result would be a weakening of the right-side of the spectrum and more than likely a reconciliation or coalition of the two parties, resulting (ultimately) in a single right-side party that has two manifestations. The same outcome is likely for any <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> party that sufficiently leans one way such that it will not be able to take from both sides simultaneously.</p>
<p><strong>Bookends<br />
</strong>The other possibility is that of a bookend party, either far-enough left or far-enough right that it is placed on the outside of its related major party. For this example, I will use a stereotypical far-left party: the Socialist party.</p>
<p>Imagine this party gaining strength. Like the first example, it will do so at the cost of its related major party (i.e. the Democrats). Also like the previous example, it will result in either a replacement of its major party or a distancing of the two. However, where we see the biggest difference is in this distancing because it will be pushing the remaining Democrats right but more than likely not enough to push them straight into the major right-wing party (i.e. the GOP), we will see instead a weakened <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> Democratic party that pushes the major right further right while also taking from its membership a small amount. In other words, it would force three parties split along the left/right spectrum with a <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> middle party.</p>
<p>However, I will be bold here and suggest that the <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> party will exist in name only. In practice, it will stand torn between the two other parties, unable to find an ideological position of its own. This is because American political <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/ideology/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with ideology">ideology</a> is so entrenched in a two-party system that the option of a middle-ground third party is unfathomable as an ideological position. This <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/ideology/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with ideology">ideology</a> crushes any and all middle third parties by ideological attacks from both sides. Instead of a <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> party, there will instead be many <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/centrist/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with centrist">centrist</a> third parties unable to coalesce into a major political party or ideological position, much like there is already today. In other words, much like the previous situation, the displacement needed for a third party will ultimately lead to the downfall of an actual third party and become, yet again, a simple replacement of an existing incumbent party.</p>
<p><strong>Plurality<br />
</strong>The only possibility of a sustainable &#8216;third party&#8217; is really through the formation of, in my own count, 4 major parties that break the left/right spectrum. These 4 parties would be split so that one could see two left parties and two right parties, however there are enough ideological beliefs in the four so that there exists a tangible regular alliance across the left-right distinction (e.g. along the lines of government size which would see both left anarchists and right libertarians side together). However they are created and displaced, there will still be a central region which remains undecided which will still be unable to coalesce into its own ideological position. In other words, neutrality&#8211;as an uniting ideological position&#8211;remains impossible.</p>				</div><!-- .entry-content -->

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		<h4><span id="comments">7</span> Responses to &#8220;Third Party&#8217;s Future Failure&#8221;</h4>

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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-CaseyHuxley even thread-even depth-1 c-y2009 c-m10 c-d20 c-h08">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=294" rel="nofollow">Jasen Tracy</a></span>

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				<p>The U.S. is a two party country because of the first past the post election system, and possible secondarily because of the Presidential (as opposed to parliamentary) system. The European countries with legitimate third parties tend to have a sort of proportional representation (Germany, Italy) or a run-off system (France).  The U.K  with a parlimentary system and first past the post is a 2.5 party system.</p>
<p>Canada is alot like the U.K. with a regional (Bloc) added for a 3.5 party system.  A regional party can work in a parliamentary system because they have a chance to have power in a coalition government.  Of course, someone could argue that the 2 U.S. parties are already coalitions formed before the election instead of after like what happens in parliamentary systems.     </p>
<p>The Libertarians (I hope you didn&#8217;t mean Newt for an example) do seemed to have drifted to the right lately (emphasizing their gun rights and fiscal concerns to the damage of their traditional social rights issues), which I think is a mistake.  If that&#8217;s what they want they should just be Republicans.  Libertarians were never meant to be center or anywhere on<br />
the American left/right axis, they were supposed to be off the axis altogether.  </p>
<p>Perhaps the best chance to have an influential third part in recent years was the Reform Party, though it failed to amount to anything without Perot.  It they had managed to pick up the anti-free trade voters that the Democrats abandoned with Clinton&#8217;s move to the center, it may have been able to have a base.</p>
 
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				<span class="comment-author"><a href='http://threestooges.net' rel='external nofollow' class='url'>Rob</a></span>

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				<p>I gave up on your &#8220;analysis&#8221; after the third paragraph.  If you think that Newt Gingrich is a &#8220;libertarian&#8221;, or that he is in any way comparable to Ron Paul, you really do not know what you are talking about.</p>
 
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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-atanamis even thread-even depth-1 c-y2009 c-m10 c-d20 c-h10">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=61" rel="nofollow">Atanamis</a></span>

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				<p>It&#8217;s nice to see that the author is beginning to contemplate party mechanics, but he is still in the very early stages of this thought process. Jasen has a far deeper understanding of the causes of our current party system, and why other nations have differing systems. &#8220;First past the post&#8221; (plurality) voting systems will always tend toward a two party system. So long as my vote for a third party causes my &#8220;worst choice&#8221; to happen, I&#8217;ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I&#8217;d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.</p>
<p>Block systems work fine if votes are dispersed proportionally. If 5% of the voters voted third party, that would be 22 members in the House of Representatives. There, those candidates could lobby for their third party&#8217;s interests, negotiating with two major parties. For example, they might agree to a war spending bill in exchange for drug legalization. Both major parties might oppose drug legalization, but one might be willing to allow it to get their war spending bill passed.</p>
<p>First past the post makes achieving second place worthless and third place a spoiler. Anyone voting for the third place guy who also liked the second place guy hurt their own view by voting their conscience. Even in situations where there is only one position (US President, for example), it would be more fair to allow the tertiary candidates to &#8220;assign&#8221; votes they won based on negotiation with the leading candidates. That way if neither candidate wins a straight majority, my third party cause still gets some value from my having voted for them. What this actually does is move back toward the original intent of the electoral college, where the people voted for electors they trusted to negotiate well for the eventual candidate. Of course, this would again require electoral votes to be assigned proportionally, rather than first past the post in each state as is currently done. Third parties simply aren&#8217;t logical in a first past the post system.</p>
 
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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-cchrisr bypostauthor odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1 c-y2009 c-m10 c-d20 c-h11">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=50" rel="nofollow">cchrisr</a></span>

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				<p>If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies. That&#8217;s for a different breed of human. Thankfully, one commenter was very clear in expressing the ideology I was exposing:</p>
<blockquote><p>So long as my vote for a third party causes my “worst choice” to happen, I’ll vote for my second choice any time the race is close. I’d rather vote for the lesser of two evils than get the worst of all evils.</p></blockquote>
 
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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-colin-elliott even thread-even depth-1 c-y2009 c-m10 c-d20 c-h11">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=2" rel="nofollow">Colin</a></span>

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				<blockquote><p>These 4 parties would be split so that one could see two left parties and two right parties, however there are enough ideological beliefs in the four so that there exists a tangible regular alliance across the left-right distinction (e.g. along the lines of government size which would see both left anarchists and right libertarians side together).</p></blockquote>
<p>This is dead on. And I *hope* it is happening now. I spent a lot of time in the conservative movement moving out further and further to the &#8220;right&#8221; until I now believe I am equidistant from centre right and left (if political ideology is a circle). I have found just as much affinity with the radical left as I have the radical right. Browse wikipedia on &#8220;anarchism&#8221; and it is clear that this is the point where left/right politics becomes very confusing and there is a great deal of overlap.</p>
<p>I think the four party concept is a good course, basically creating four sets of divisions and alliances:</p>
<p>left/right<br />
authoritarian/libertarian</p>
<p>One would think that this would provide a better check on the ideology of government in a democracy. If it shifts too far authoritarian, then the libertarian alliance (left-libertarian and right-libertarian) forms. If it shifts too far right, then the left alliance forms (libertarian-left, authoritarian-left).</p>
<p>Unfortunately, I think with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the &#8220;lesser of two evils&#8221; mentality. However, ideologically, I think we are getting there even now. The presidency of GW Bush has awakened a large amount of the libertarian-right. Obama is just the kind of president to awaken the libertarian-left.</p>
 
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				<span class="comment-author">June</span>

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				<p>The good news is that our current governmental fiscal crises have breathed new life into the electoral reform movement because it can save money.  Even Los Angeles is now seriously considering replacing their multi-election runoff system with Instant-Runoff-Voting.  Most people in the electoral reform movement consider IRV a first step toward proportional representation.  For more information on electoral reform please visit <a href="http://www.fairvote.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.fairvote.org</a> or if you happen to be in CA visit <a href="http://www.cfer.org" rel="nofollow">http://www.cfer.org</a> (Californians for Electoral Reform).</p>
 
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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-atanamis even thread-even depth-1 c-y2009 c-m10 c-d23 c-h06">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=61" rel="nofollow">Atanamis</a></span>

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				<p>June:<br />
IRV is not significantly better than plurality voting, while being more confusing to the voter. Ideal known voting systems would be either Approval or Ranked Pairs. </p>
<p>IRV (compared to Approval) adds:<br />
Clone independence (identical candidates don&#8217;t hurt each other)<br />
Condorcet loser (candidate losing individually against all others loses)</p>
<p>At the cost of:<br />
Monotone (candidate can&#8217;t be hurt by voters voting for them)<br />
Consistency (candidate who wins two halves wins the whole)<br />
Participation (is participating honestly always better than not voting)</p>
<p>Honestly, I prefer the current plurality system to the failings of IRV, which I view as more dangerous.</p>
<p>Cchrisr:</p>
<blockquote><p>If one thinks I was writing about party mechanics, one is sorely mistaken. I was very clear in my first paragraph that I was speaking of ideologies, not voting systems or voter strategies.</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree. My point was similar to Colin&#8217;s, that &#8220;with plurality voting, this will not be articulated politically because of the “lesser of two evils” mentality&#8221;. Ideologically, it is absolutely essential that parties greater than 2 be such that they can form alliances with multiple other parties, otherwise they will simply be marginalized or merged into the party they agree with the most. This is achievable with only 3 parties if the third party bounces back and forth, but would be far more stable in the kind of 4 party structure you described.</p>
 
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