Just months ago back in the US, I was so used to capitalism-hate coming from many people who were benefiting tremendously from it. Wal-Mart was the biggest target in my part of the country – with many cities in my state issuing bans on “big-box” stores and trying to prevent the evil of low-prices and jobs from taking hold of their budding leftopias.
In the UK, however, I have not heard a single bad word about Wal-Mart (represented here by their UK counterpart ASDA). In fact, many people are tremendously grateful for ASDA – which has come into cities and towns across the country and offered prices, especially on food, at around 1/5 of major brands.
But ASDA (and other large retailer TESCO) have been allowed here to do much more than food. While the US has rejected the system of free commerce which made it great,the UK has allowed these companies to offer about everything: internet, finance, car insurance, phone, credit cards, fast-food – you name it. I remember how angry people were in the US when Wal-Mart just contemplated doing some basic finance.
We are dirt poor in the UK – poorer than we have ever been. We have rent coming up and I have no idea how we are going to make it. For the first time in my life, I have had to go into debt. But it would be much worse without these major corporations which have been allowed to be built either here or abroad.
We’ve got our car insurance through TESCO, for example, which has given us a quote about $200 lower than we paid in the US, and about $1000 under the nearest competitor. We (will) have our internet and phone through Virgin Media, which is an amazing company, at half the price as the US with twice the speed. I have multiple options for internet and phone here, as opposed to one local monopoly given by local government. Virgin is literally going to come to my house, build a line to my house as well as a jack whereever I want – and this included in my monthly cost.
Lately, I have been entertaining the though of what this country would look like without these major companies. Because Britian’s socialism is very unfavourable to a middle class and small businesses, these large companies are all this country has, quite frankly. The government here is pretty worthless – taxing everything, multiple times (no protections from double taxation here) and is generally a huge obstacle to anyone becoming anything other than working class. The government has created a fairly permanent-feeling class system – with a ceiling just above working class and a very high threshold to finally emerge in an upper-middle/wealthy class. Safety nets for the poor in education, healthcare and pension have developed into walls that keep people dependent on a hand out – honing their skills for begging and victimhood rather than for adding productive value to the economy (which would be sucked up fairly quickly by the high taxes anyway).
“The government has created a fairly permanent-feeling class system – with a ceiling just above working class and a very high threshold to finally emerge in an upper-middle/wealthy class. Safety nets for the poor in education, healthcare and pension have developed into walls that keep people dependent on a hand out – honing their skills for begging and victimhood rather than for adding productive value to the economy (which would be sucked up fairly quickly by the high taxes anyway).”
That comes through in all of Dalrymple’s writing. Pretty sad how infantalized they’ve become, and how we in the US are only 20 years behind.
I would say, on an absolute threshold, we are in the same league as the UK, with socialism being the general mode of operation. We are not as socialist as the UK in some ways (taxation, for example) but in other ways, we are much worse (anti-trust, education, ect…).
Yes, I was more referring to the level of dependecy of the populace. Here in America, we’re still relatively independent of government handouts. People can work themselves up the ladder pretty easily. From what you and Dr. Dalrymple have said, this is just not very easy to do in the UK. But if we continue evermore socialistic policies here in the USA, we will soon find ourselves in the predictament of Britain.
I’m actually surprised at the freedom you’ve described for “big box” stores in the UK. I have relatives from the UK, and the level of socialism there is far higher than that here. The “services” and “protections” given by the government are far larger than here, though the recent financial meltdown shows how damaging government intervention can be to our economy here as well.
One relative there had a child die (around 30 years ago) due to the socialized medical care which refused to allow her to get a second opinion on her child’s medical condition after a wrong diagnosis by her primary care physician (who also refused to reevaluate his position). By the time they illegally found a way to see another doctor to get an accurate diagnosis, it was too late to save the child.
This is what people don’t understand about social services. Government’s ONLY advantage over private charity is the ability to use force. Government programs therefore by definition require a loss of freedom. How many things are really worth giving up freedom for? Anarchists would argue none, libertarians would argue only physical security, most other people range between there and socialism, which forces us to give up freedom in any area considered a “need”. I suppose that is at least an improvement from the older mindset that considered the freedom of an individual itself to be an odd concept.
Any important services we want to support can be provided just as effectively by privately managed charities funded by voluntary donations. I share the belief of socialists that it is harmful to allow people to starve or freeze in our streets, even if the reason they are there are entirely their own fault. This can be addressed by private food pantries and homeless shelters though. I agree that someone needing help learning a trade or profession should be helped if they are willing to work hard to learn the skillset, but this can be addressed by private educational loan programs! I even agree that it makes sense to help someone whose field is no longer profitable or who has been injured and can no longer practice their trade, but again this doesn’t require government intervention. Finally, I agree that emergency medical care should offered to everyone, but even here private charities can cover expenses!
If we as a populace feel these services need to be offered, we can just as easily donate to fund them and work with facilitators to organize them as we can provide the needed oversight over government organizations to make sure they do things right. I agree with the value in safety nets and helping hands up. What I disagree with is using forcibly confiscated tax dollars to empower an organization authorized to utilize force to create a monopoly service that reduces the individual freedoms of our citizenry. If there is enough support to vote these kind of measures into place, there should be enough support to voluntarily fund the same measures privately.
From our experience up in Glasgow, TESCO is cheaper than ASDA, but both deliver for around £5. However, we have heard people complaining against TESCO and ASDA. Here, TESCO is not allowed in the city except as TESCO Express. Also, we have found that Virgin is more expensive than the competition here (O2 for broadband and BT for phone…Freeview is enough TV for us). However, I would look into double checking Virgin does not have a one-time setup/installation fee. Here, it was £200 much like that of BT (but we had a BT installation already existing in our flat so we didn’t pay it). Another thing I have noticed is that everybody is able to afford their chosen lifestyle here (which typically includes frequently eating out, going to the pub, and a lot of football) as well as even being able to travel without breaking the bank. That is one thing I did not see in the US.
Oh, and as a side note to Atanamis’s post, there are doctors here that legally see patients privately (rather than under the NHC).
Darius, I used to think this, but I just don’t think it’s true. When anyone gets into any trouble in the US, whether it’s their mortgage or their bank – they rush to the government for a handout. Also, I don’t see people moving up the ladder in the US – the US is a socialist country.
Do we have a ladder in the US? I’ve never been to the UK, but my understanding is that the US is almost classless compared to the UK.
Are you calling Americans classless?
Yes, exactly. From what I’ve read (and what Colin is saying), the UK is quite class-oriented and pretty much stuck wherever they are. In comparison, people here switch “classes” relatively easily. Look at Obama, Biden, and Palin… yesterday’s poor are today’s ruling elite. Yes, we have people who have chosen to stay in the underclass (or even middle class), but as of yet, that is a small minority compared to the UK.
“In comparison, people here switch “classes” relatively easily. Look at Obama, Biden, and Palin… yesterday’s poor are today’s ruling elite.”
I see what you’re saying, but I don’t think its actually true. These people are merely figureheads. They are far from being the ruling elite. The ruling elite govern by choosing people to be in office, and framing political debate through the institution of think tanks, foundations, foreign policy membership organizations, and other such consortia. The candidates are hand-picked based on criteria set by the elite.
In Obama’s case, two of the real elites behind his campaign are George Soros and Zbigniew Brzezinski. And even still, these are lower-level elites who are creations of British Oligarchs of imperial minds. Biden, of course, is part of this group and was posturing on behalf of Brzezinski and Soros in Georgia before he was officially Obama’s running mate.
Should McCain/Palin get elected, I think that would be an upset for elites, since they didn’t choose them. In 2004, they had two candidates. This year they only have one. The best they would be able to hope for in a McCain administration would be to steer them in their prescribed direction.
LOL. Leave it to Chris to throw in the conspiracy theories.
It still remains true that Obama, Biden, and Palin have come from relatively nothing to pretty high standing in our country. Look at the Bill Gates of the world as another example. And look at the countless numbers of more typical examples: children of poor Asian immigrants becoming doctors, teachers, etc. The immigrants of the last century are the upper class of this century. That’s the American dream, and it still exists even though the government is doing its best to end it.
“LOL. Leave it to Chris to throw in the conspiracy theories.”
Whatever, dude. You’ll come around to reality some day. Who do you think is the main driving force behind the global warming hoax, for instance? Al Gore? Yeah, right. Try the Rothschilds and Prince Philip, the noted eugenicist who wants to be reincarnated as a disease so he can come back and kill people – the guy who helped the Nazis, the most notorious eugenicists, rise to power. The logic is that there are too many people sucking air and stressing the world’s resources, so they say populations must be drastically reduced to cut down on greenhouse gasses. It’s just another negative eugenics ploy that for generations has been a hallmark of elitist philosophy, not unlike abortion and euthanasia.
Hey, Colin. Thanks for writing about your experiences in England. I’ve sorta been waiting for that. Hopefully there is more to come, perhaps something about differences in higher learning?
Chris, that’s a whole mine of things to talk about.
Or differences at any level of education. I second Chris’ request.
For example, is theft and crime as big a problem as I’ve read? And if not, is that only because you know where to go/live and where not to go/live?
The UK seems to have an ingrained “class-language” and “class-culture” but I would say that the pragmatics of class are very similar to the US (or the US has become very similar to the UK). They just describe it and associate with it in different ways – and Americans still have this illusion that US society is upward mobile relative to other western countries – which I have really changed my mind since being away and determined that it really isn’t.
The fact is – I would never be wealthy in the US, ever. I won’t be wealthy here either. But in an actual “classless society” or “free society” I think I might get a fair shake at it.
Yeah, I remember about 15 years ago Tracy Ullman did an HBO special where she poked fun at how class works in England. I was just a teenager back then, and I remember watching it with curiosity. I didn’t think it was that funny – at least not laugh out loud funny, but I imagine she did a fairly good job of showing how the system works using comedy. Plus, you know, it was British humour. She did an excellent job of mimicking all the different accents and mannerisms and whatnot.
I hate the idea of classes because I think there is so much pretense in it. I just bring myself to the point of classifying people, and I really don’t like it when Americans pretentiously try to excel into higher “classes”. What that usually means is they overextend themselves on credit to buy houses and cars they can’t afford. And don’t misunderstand, I’m not opposed to people being rich – even filthy rich. (Of course, I am a bit cynical so take this with a grain of salt. I feel a rant coming on.) But when I see people driving over-sized SUVs talking on their cell phones, driving on ice and snow quite aggressively as though they own the road because they are important and have people to see and places to be, and then a few miles up the highway I see them in a ditch, I really have to restrain myself from feeling good about that. And it’s not that I’m against SUVs or fancy cell phones (well, I don’t like cell phones actually), but it’s the elevation of these things as status symbols and the corresponding attitudes that comes with them that bothers me. I think I’m going to invent a cell phone that has a built-in taser and an electric razor, but I digress. To me, people are people. I don’t care if you are homeless or a billionaire. I’m just saying whether you have much or little, that doesn’t define your worth, nor does the fact that you own most of the real estate in my city mean that I’m going to give you more respect. Okay, I feel better now.
People are jerks at all levels, I’ve been cut off on the highway by as many rusted out 1983 Accords as I have been by 2007 Escalades.
“People are jerks at all levels, I’ve been cut off on the highway by as many rusted out 1983 Accords as I have been by 2007 Escalades.”
That’s true, that’s true…
What do you define as wealthy? The more financial planning I do for the future, the more confused I become at how anyone who wants to be “financially independent” from a young age can fail to do so. My 401k alone will likely be worth several million by the time I’m 60, and I should be able to match that with other assets. This is with the expectation of single income for most of my life since my wife will likely be raising kids. The ONLY reason most Americans don’t achieve financial independence is because they insist on buying disposable luxuries that they don’t need early in life, and make little effort to invest in their futures.
If by “wealthy” you mean over $250,000 in non-work income a year, that does become harder. It really does require a higher contribution to the economy, generally in the form of running your own business or otherwise being a high value contributor. This is also very doable in the US. What financial success normally comes down to is a willingness to commit to the goal, live frugally, and contribute highly to the economy. Sure, government regulations and taxes may add unnecessary additional challenges, but at least in the US these challenges can pretty readily be circumvented.
Chris, surely an elite as all powerful and secretive as you describe could readily have someone like McCain “secretly” owned by them? He has been a central pillar in the Republican party for forever, and the kind of mystery back room power brokers you describe could surely have set him up for a loss if they’d wanted to do so. Why are you so firm in your belief that while Obama, Bush, and Kerry are all controlled by these elites, McCain is the one non-controlled man in the group? Was this somehow leaked from the last gathering of this elite council of shadow leaders?
“Was this somehow leaked from the last gathering of this elite council of shadow leaders?”
Full disclosure: I was at that meeting. Obama gave Prince Phillip a high-five and told him that McCain would play ball. The Rothschilds weren’t so sure, so they said they would pull some strings in the U.N. and make him disappear. Not sure what they meant by that… On a side note, their secret handshake is a combination between the middle finger and the Hook ‘Em Horns sign, in case you ever want to sneak in yourself. Oh, and they charge $5 for access to the bar.
“Chris, surely an elite as all powerful and secretive as you describe could readily have someone like McCain “secretly” owned by them? He has been a central pillar in the Republican party for forever, and the kind of mystery back room power brokers you describe could surely have set him up for a loss if they’d wanted to do so. Why are you so firm in your belief that while Obama, Bush, and Kerry are all controlled by these elites, McCain is the one non-controlled man in the group? Was this somehow leaked from the last gathering of this elite council of shadow leaders?”
Elites such as the European oligarchs, the Rothschilds, and the Rockefellers do not do all their bidding in secret. They formulate the context of political discourse and activity. One has to determine who conceived the International Monetary Fund, the Council on Foreign Relations, The Trilateral Commission, Bilderberg (the only known super secretive forum), etc. It’s not as if they conspire to control every little thing. They don’t have to because everything operates within the framework of their own institutional brainchildren. Not only that, many of the foundations that influence political ideology are funded by them – the environmental lobby, for instance.
As far as McCain is concerned, I have no knowledge of any associations of his that would indicate his success is anything other than a fluke. So I will admit I am speculating. His campaign almost crashed and burned before it got off the ground, and every move he makes seems to be without careful consideration. The degree of personal control he exercises over his own campaign indicates that he really lacks the measured influence of the people who steer these things. I could be wrong, but I honestly think McCain is mostly just a well-meaning and misdirected guy. Of course, he is in the pocket of the Israel lobby and is a total warmonger, but you know, he’s no absolute tool of the elite either. Just my take. I could be wrong. Presidential campaigns necessitate speculation. I just take it a bit further than most.
Hi,
Why oh why does someone from Britain even read
this stuff? You poor Americans banging on about
the British and “class”. From our standpoint the
giggle is the ‘American dream’ (yer right).
A log cabin and all of you are going to make
it to the White House. What is the population of the
US? A mathmatical impossibility – and as for being
classless please remind me when did Jackie Kennnedy or any
of that large family send their kids to same type of
school as those of you writing on this website.
By the way do remember that Kathleen Kennedy shot over
here to marry into the aristocracy as soon as she could
and her father was a self made man.
No johnny come lately for her!
Classless America in your dreams……..
Hey from a British standpoint we still love/loathe
Americans especially those who we have always been able
to count on in wars. Yes I’ll say it again God help us
if you weren’t around. And I mean that sincerely. Its like having a younger brother or sister love and hate in equal measure. Bless you all.