The following is what I see happening, it does not mean I agree with what I see.
There were news reports this weekend (see HERE, and HERE) that some conservative Anglican bishops opposed to female bishops in particular, and the general liberal direction of the church as a whole, are considering joining the Roman Catholic Church. If these bishops convert to Roman Catholicism they would not be the first Anglicans (think of John Henry Newman and Thomas Howard), and surely will not be the last. But why would any Protestant want to convert to Roman Catholicism?
The answer I think is quite simple; the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) on many, many, doctrines is more orthodox then Protestant churches.
Women in the ministry, the homosexual question, the Trinity, and the importance of the church, are all topics (and there are more) that many Protestants have moved away from their historic teaching on, yet the RCC has remained steadfast on them. If a Protestant is leaving a church or denomination because it is too liberal, the RCC should at least have some appeal to them. The appeal for some Anglicans is even more however, as besides being conservative, they also have similar liturgy, structure (somewhat but not identical, as there are huge differences between the position of Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury), and history. This has lead to the Anglo-Catholicism movement within Anglicism, and converts to Rome seeing it as not a big shift.
The Anglican church however is a big tent church, and not every conservative Anglican could jump into the RCC. Evangelical Anglicans, although quite conservative, place so much importance on the doctrine of “Justification By Faith Alone” that no matter how many other orthodox teachings the RCC has, they don’t see themselves as ever being able to be part of it because of it’s view on justification. Others see the supremacy of the Pope as a huge stumbling block, or other doctrines such as prayers for the saints.
But still, even with the disagreement over justification evangelical conversions are not unheard of. Last year Francis J. Beckwith, an evangelical although not an Anglican evangelical, made headlines when he joined the RCC (althouh not to escape the liberal creep, he’s still a good example of the possibility to evangelical conversions). I’m not sure how much Beckwith’s understanding of justification had changed to allow for conversion, but in an interview after his conversion he pointed to the Evangelicals and Catholics Together document as being helpful in his conversion so I would assume he would hold to something along the lines of what it says:
We affirm together that we are justified by grace through faith because of Christ. Living faith is active in love that is nothing less than the love of Christ, for we together say with Paul: “I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2)
So maybe there is even room in the RCC for some evangelicals who can agree with this?
In the future I can only see more conversions to Catholicism out of liberal protestantism. Within Christianity there is a division happening, between the conservative and liberal faction. Within the Anglican Communion it’s coming to a head now, and if some see no other option conversion to Catholicism may increase. Of course no one wants to leave the Anglican Church. Plans are being devised for everything from compromise to dual power structures for conservatives and liberals. These may work, they may not, but the idea of jumping to one of the most conservative Christian traditions can’t be far from mind for many conservatives with mainline liberal churches.
Good article, Bryan. I think you are right about the split between theological liberals and conservatives. Didn’t you do an article about this before sort of? But yeah, people are jumping ship and who can blame them? And the Pope’s stance on non-Catholic Christianity only makes Catholicism stand out that much more.
The thing that causes me to wonder (and I am about to digress here) is all the weird stuff about the Roman Catholic Church. I mean no offense to Catholics, and I think I have proven myself to be open to discussions about Catholic theology, but the space aliens being our “extraterrestrial brothers” stuff and the secret hooded Catholic societies, etc. That stuff is just weird to me.
Another thing that is weird to me is the conversion of Tony Blair, an occultist who uses a medium to channel “the Light” who is a former Anglican. And now there is speculation that Bush, a Methodist, will also convert to Catholicism after his lengthy visit with the Pope. What is the driving force behind the conversions of people at high levels of government? Maybe its nothing, but knowing the power of the Vatican and its history, I would be dishonest to say it doesn’t cause me to wonder.
Agreed Chris. While I believe in the well meaning and good intentions of almost all Catholics, I am highly, highly sceptical about that nature of the church’s authority and its influence in modern governments.
Not every Catholic is happy about this it appears
That’s an interesting link, Bryan. Something tells me the Roman Catholic Church is glad to have these people even if some of their people aren’t.
There is definitely a historical precedent with the Catholic church to have people under their system rather than devoutly believing in it.
A minister friend of mine said that when he was in Haiti he discovered that even some of the Catholic priests were also witchdoctors on the side. They actually practiced voodoo! You don’t see the church really trying to stamp that out.
Throughout Latin America you have this strange brand of mystic Catholicism. The religion is modified to include beliefs that are not a part of traditional Catholic doctrine. You know, Our Lady of Guadalupe apparitions and all that. That particular example is one that the church has not only condoned, but embraced. Why? Perhaps because she is literally a Mexican national treasure, and that keeps Mexicans loyal to the Roman Catholic church.
The Queen is the head of the church, makes worrying about woman bishops a bit silly.
The role of the Queen (or King) is quite different then that of a bishop.
Chris A wrote:
“The thing that causes me to wonder (and I am about to digress here) is all the weird stuff about the Roman Catholic Church. I mean no offense to Catholics, and I think I have proven myself to be open to discussions about Catholic theology, but the space aliens being our “extraterrestrial brothers” stuff and the secret hooded Catholic societies, etc. That stuff is just weird to me.”
Chris,
As I recall, the “space aliens” comment was speculation by one theologian who works at the Vatican. I don’t remember him using that phrase, but if he did, okay. I DO remember him speculating as to whether or not Christian faith would be compromised if there were other intelligent beings in the universe, much the way C.S. Lewis did with his “Space Trilogy.” At any rate, it wasn’t any kind of an official church document - the only place I’ve seen it discussed much has been on Protestant websites - citing it as evidence of Catholic teaching. Ridiculous.
Just curious - which “secret hooded Catholic societies” are you thinking of?
Bryan, I think you’re right. Beckwith was just the beginning. As a former evangelical myself, I really had no idea how MANY conversions to Catholicism there have been in the last 20 years. In some ways Beckwith is simply the most famous recent one. While I wasn’t an Anglican, I do see serious issues with the current state of evangelicalism - issues which had an impact on me. To give one example, the prevalence of the “emergent” church movement, and “seeker-friendly” churches who aspire to be megachurches, seems to me evidence of a version of Christianity in search of itself, despite many other wonderful things about evangelicalism. These, among other things, played a role in causing me to be open to investigating the claims of the Catholic Church - something I wouldn’t have even considered ten years earlier.
Thanks for the thought-provoking post.
Ed, I can’t speak to Chris’ comments but when I read the words “secret hooded Catholic societies” I immediately think of the historic role of the Jesuits.
“As I recall, the “space aliens” comment was speculation by one theologian who works at the Vatican. I don’t remember him using that phrase, but if he did, okay. I DO remember him speculating as to whether or not Christian faith would be compromised if there were other intelligent beings in the universe, much the way C.S. Lewis did with his “Space Trilogy.” At any rate, it wasn’t any kind of an official church document - the only place I’ve seen it discussed much has been on Protestant websites - citing it as evidence of Catholic teaching. Ridiculous.”
“Just curious - which “secret hooded Catholic societies” are you thinking of?”
First of all, forgive me if I said anything offensive regarding Catholicism. I am not anti-Catholic, but in all honesty, there are some things that I find very strange as an outsider.
The extraterrestrial brethren comment was made by a Vatican astronomer. It is not an official church position, but neither was it a mere random comment made by a Catholic. Maybe I should not have thrown that in with my other comments, but again I was just citing what I see as strange from my perspective. If he had only said that there was no conflict between believing in God and extraterrestrial life - and he did say that by the way - it would not be terribly weird to me. But to call them brothers?
The secret orders of the Vatican I was referring to are the Jesuits, the Knights of Malta, and Opus Dei. P2 also comes to mind, although I don’t think it is affiliated with the church even though they were once well known in the Vatican city. These groups are even controversial within the church itself, and have been charged with influencing world events. P2 was a Masonic organization, but has since been officially disaffiliated with regular freemasonry and is more like a mafia fraternity now. They have been accused of infiltrating the Italian government and are now banned in Italy, as are all secret societies.
Below is a link to some photographs of these societies in their hoods. Pardon the other weird stuff on this web site. And the illustration of the KKK guy on the horse should be ignored.
http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/religion17.html
Catholics might find odd to think Jesuits and Opus Dei are secret orders…These “secret orders” openly run universities, high schools and missions all over the world…they’re not secret contrary to Dan Brown or any old English protestant might write. Do they have the odd crackpot in them..sure..so what?
As for P2, it’s a masonic order that is anti-clerical and not particularly favourable to the Church. (yes, i’ve read “Power on Earth” and “St Peter’s Banker”) My understanding is that Catholics are still forbidden to join masonic organizations.
As for the hooded, robed men, they’re simply laypeople participating in public displays of penance during Easter Week(especially in Spain). The hoods ensure anonymity.
Whether you swim the tiber or not should be based on theology and tradition, its teaching on Faith and morals, not on the “weird” stuff that you cite.
If it weren’t for its Divine Origins, the Catholic Church would have faded away to irrelevance a longtime ago, just like the Anglican Church is quickly doing.
“Whether you swim the tiber or not should be based on theology and tradition, its teaching on Faith and morals, not on the “weird” stuff that you cite.”
Are you saying that these hoods, which to many people will evoke images of the Klan, are not part of Catholic tradition? To me, that is a weird tradition; so I see a duality of weirdness and tradition here. As far as Catholic doctrine goes, I have a number of disagreements with that as well that I will not get into here. But my point is that, as an outsider, these things are strange to me. And I do not make a distinction between the things I think are strange and many other aspects of the religion; its all Catholicism. Forgive me for being honest. If you said you thought Protestant traditions are strange to you, I might disagree but I would totally understand. I honestly don’t think there are very many non-Catholics who would not find those photographs in the link I provided a little weird. Maybe we can take a poll. Here’s the link again.
http://jordanmaxwell.com/articles/religion/religion17.html
And yeah, my understanding is that Catholics are forbidden from joining masonic organizations.
Chris, some of those pictures appeared to be KKK people and the KKK was/is anti-Catholic.
and his site screams “nutcase!”
Blair, the newly converted Catholic, is now a Professor of Religion at Yale.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080922/ts_alt_afp/usbritainpoliticsreligionpeopleeducationblair