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	<title>Comments on: Tradition &amp; Heresy</title>
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		<title>By: Chris A</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6576</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 13:27:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I figured you were coming from that perspective, given the use of quotation marks around the phrase.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I figured you were coming from that perspective, given the use of quotation marks around the phrase.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6575</link>
		<dc:creator>cchrisr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 13:09:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6575</guid>
		<description>Chris, we do use the term &quot;inspired by God&quot; incorrectly.  Look at people such as Augustine and Origen: their &quot;rule of faith&quot; was all about the catechetical (and philosophical!) traditions that they were in.  It had nothing to do with the kind of literalism that permeates the church today.  So far, I&#039;ve read through two of Augustine&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Literal Interpretation on Genesis&lt;/i&gt; (there&#039;s still the large 2-volume work for me) and yet never does he find himself in the same interpretive camp as those who follow the Scottish Common Sense literalism. He even says point blank that (1) multiple interpretations are correct (this is further echoed in Book 12 of &lt;i&gt;Confessions&lt;/i&gt;) and (2) his interpretation stems from his tradition which is largely a mixture of Neoplatonic philosophy and the strand of &quot;literal interpretation&quot; that comes through both Origen and Ambrose.  For him, God was &quot;inspiring&quot; the whole process, not just the writing of the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, we do use the term &#8220;inspired by God&#8221; incorrectly.  Look at people such as Augustine and Origen: their &#8220;rule of faith&#8221; was all about the catechetical (and philosophical!) traditions that they were in.  It had nothing to do with the kind of literalism that permeates the church today.  So far, I&#8217;ve read through two of Augustine&#8217;s <i>Literal Interpretation on Genesis</i> (there&#8217;s still the large 2-volume work for me) and yet never does he find himself in the same interpretive camp as those who follow the Scottish Common Sense literalism. He even says point blank that (1) multiple interpretations are correct (this is further echoed in Book 12 of <i>Confessions</i>) and (2) his interpretation stems from his tradition which is largely a mixture of Neoplatonic philosophy and the strand of &#8220;literal interpretation&#8221; that comes through both Origen and Ambrose.  For him, God was &#8220;inspiring&#8221; the whole process, not just the writing of the text.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Austere</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6574</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Austere</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 09:37:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6574</guid>
		<description>&quot;I’d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are “inspired by God” and which are not. It’s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).&quot;

Here&#039;s where I have to disagree, while I think I understand where you&#039;re coming from. Basically either God inspired it or he didn&#039;t - point blank. I understand that different Christian traditions will view things differently, but that should not be interpreted to mean that God inspired the apocryphal books just because some choose to make those books part of their tradition. As to the question of how one determines which books are inspired, I&#039;ll leave that up to someone else. Either way, men cannot ascertain the inspiration of God on the basis of traditional preference. Otherwise we use the phrase &quot;inspired of God&quot; entirely too loosely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I’d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are “inspired by God” and which are not. It’s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s where I have to disagree, while I think I understand where you&#8217;re coming from. Basically either God inspired it or he didn&#8217;t &#8211; point blank. I understand that different Christian traditions will view things differently, but that should not be interpreted to mean that God inspired the apocryphal books just because some choose to make those books part of their tradition. As to the question of how one determines which books are inspired, I&#8217;ll leave that up to someone else. Either way, men cannot ascertain the inspiration of God on the basis of traditional preference. Otherwise we use the phrase &#8220;inspired of God&#8221; entirely too loosely.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6570</link>
		<dc:creator>cchrisr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 02:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6570</guid>
		<description>One of the points implicit in this series is that all of this (orthodoxy, Scriptures, and even interpretations) all stem from tradition (see the first two parts).  Tradition often gets a bad reputation in Protestant circles (largely because of the battle cry of &lt;i&gt;sola Scriptura&lt;/i&gt;), but it&#039;s just as pervasive and important.  Without tradition, there is no such thing as orthodoxy or Scriptures.  I&#039;d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are &quot;inspired by God&quot; and which are not.  It&#039;s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of the points implicit in this series is that all of this (orthodoxy, Scriptures, and even interpretations) all stem from tradition (see the first two parts).  Tradition often gets a bad reputation in Protestant circles (largely because of the battle cry of <i>sola Scriptura</i>), but it&#8217;s just as pervasive and important.  Without tradition, there is no such thing as orthodoxy or Scriptures.  I&#8217;d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are &#8220;inspired by God&#8221; and which are not.  It&#8217;s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6569</link>
		<dc:creator>Jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 May 2008 02:18:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6569</guid>
		<description>OK. That makes sense. So should we presume that the original text is the real text, or does orthodoxy actually change the text and make the new text the real text? To put it another way: if one believes the Bible is inspired by God, are the updated phrases inspired? Which is the real Scripture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. That makes sense. So should we presume that the original text is the real text, or does orthodoxy actually change the text and make the new text the real text? To put it another way: if one believes the Bible is inspired by God, are the updated phrases inspired? Which is the real Scripture?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6567</link>
		<dc:creator>cchrisr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 22:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6567</guid>
		<description>As Chris A said, many of the instances where orthodoxy deliberately changed the text had minimal (if any) impact on theology.  In fact, most often it was to exclude what general orthodoxy considered aberrant or heterodox interpretations of small texts. The example I provided in Luke is a perfect depiction of this because the &quot;proto-orthodox&quot; had already considered the adoptionist reading incorrect based on other verses.  It has almost always been an attempt to homogenize Scriptures so that the resulting theology is homogenized.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Chris A said, many of the instances where orthodoxy deliberately changed the text had minimal (if any) impact on theology.  In fact, most often it was to exclude what general orthodoxy considered aberrant or heterodox interpretations of small texts. The example I provided in Luke is a perfect depiction of this because the &#8220;proto-orthodox&#8221; had already considered the adoptionist reading incorrect based on other verses.  It has almost always been an attempt to homogenize Scriptures so that the resulting theology is homogenized.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Chris A</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6564</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 19:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6564</guid>
		<description>&quot;I mean deliberate alterations of the text.&quot;

I too find that quite troubling, but I&#039;m only aware of a handful of instances of this. None of them that I know of alter the message to the text to the  extent that it would affect theology in a major way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I mean deliberate alterations of the text.&#8221;</p>
<p>I too find that quite troubling, but I&#8217;m only aware of a handful of instances of this. None of them that I know of alter the message to the text to the  extent that it would affect theology in a major way.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6563</link>
		<dc:creator>Jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 18:45:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6563</guid>
		<description>I mean deliberate alterations of the text.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean deliberate alterations of the text.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Chris A</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6562</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris A</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 17:20:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6562</guid>
		<description>Another excellent article, cchrisr. 

&quot;So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?&quot;

Do you mean orthodoxy changing what is considered to be scripture or orthodoxy changing the interpretation of scripture?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another excellent article, cchrisr. </p>
<p>&#8220;So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you mean orthodoxy changing what is considered to be scripture or orthodoxy changing the interpretation of scripture?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/comment-page-1/#comment-6561</link>
		<dc:creator>Jew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 May 2008 16:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy-rfp/#comment-6561</guid>
		<description>So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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			<div id="post-256" class="post-256 post type-post hentry category-essays category-theology tag-ehrman tag-heresy tag-interpretation tag-isaiah tag-luke tag-orthodoxy tag-text-criticism tag-tradition p1 y2008 m05 d01 h05">
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						<a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/" rel="bookmark" title="Permanent Link to Tradition &amp; Heresy">Tradition &#038; Heresy</a>
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						Written by <span class="vcard author entry-author"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/author/cchrisr/" class="url fn" title="View all posts by Christopher Roussel">Christopher Roussel</a></span>. Published on <abbr class="published entry-date" title="2008-05-01T10:00:55+0000">May 1, 2008 ago</abbr> in <span class="entry-categories"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/category/essays/" title="View all posts in Essays">Essays</a> and <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/category/religion/theology/" title="View all posts in Theology">Theology</a></span>. <span class="entry-comments"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/tradition-heresy/#comments" class="commentslink"  title="Comment on Tradition &amp; Heresy">10 <span>Comments</span></a></span>					</div> <!-- .entry-meta -->

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										<div class="seriesmeta">This entry is part 4 of 4 in the series <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/series/tradition/" class="series-338" title="Tradition">Tradition</a></div><div class="seriesbox"><div class="center"><br /><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/series/tradition/" class="series-338" title="Tradition">Tradition</a></div><ul class="serieslist-ul"><li class="serieslist-li"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/tradition-orthodoxy/" title="Tradition &#038; Orthodoxy">Tradition &#038; Orthodoxy</a></li><li class="serieslist-li"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/04/tradition-text/" title="Tradition &#038; Text">Tradition &#038; Text</a></li><li class="serieslist-li"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/04/tradition-theology/" title="Tradition &#038; Theology">Tradition &#038; Theology</a></li><li class="serieslist-li-current"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/tradition/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Tradition">Tradition</a> &#038; <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/heresy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with heresy">Heresy</a></li></ul></div><p><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/tradition/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Tradition">Tradition</a> is best defined as the cyclical interaction between <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> and scriptures.  It can be seen most in the way that scriptures have been transformed through the course of time in their interaction with <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a>.  Brevard Childs has provided an excellent resource for this: his book <em>The Struggle to Understand <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> as Christian Scripture</em>.  This one work is a wonderful collection of texts from as early as the second century with the most influential church fathers to as late as ten years ago; it is one of the best collections covering the way that the book of <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> has been reinterpreted throughout Christianity.  As the book revolves around the <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/interpretation/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with interpretation">interpretation</a> of <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> from the second century to the twenty-first century, it is worth a brief look to show the interaction between <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> and scriptures.</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> as an Example</strong><br />
Childs begins with Justin Martyr&#8217;s take on <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a>.  Justin reads in <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> the prophecies of the virgin birth and the suffering servant, particularly seeing the death of Christ as being symbolic of the Passover lamb.  Yet Justin also has his own radical interpretations, such as applying the attacks in <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> 3 and 5 on the eighth-century Jewish leadership to the Jews of his own day [Brevard Childs, Struggle to Understand <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> as Christian Scripture (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 2004): 41].</p>
<p>The first two interpretations carry to this day, but the third was eventually excluded in later (much later) generations.  It is already here that there is an influence of scripture on <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a>, which gets re-interpreted as the basis for later interpretations.</p>
<p>Soon after Justin, Irenaeus added a few interpretations of his own.  His chief addition was in interpreting <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> 7 and 9 as indicating the divine and human nature of Jesus [Childs, 51].  Irenaeus is also one of the first church fathers to quote at length Christian writings and treat these as canonical literature.  By the end of the third century, <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> had equalized about the nature of Christ and began to flesh out its view of the incarnation of Christ.  Eusebius in the third century is fixated by this idea and dedicates four chapters of his <em>Demonstratio Evangelica</em> to it [Childs, 83].  Furthermore, Eusebius authored the earliest extant commentary on <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a>—evidence that <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> had successfully crossed over from Jewish to Christian scripture [Origen authored the first, but it is lost].</p>
<p>The interaction has thus far developed in this way after the death and resurrection: the early Christian community sought to read the <em>Jewish</em> scriptures through the lens of the death and resurrection, which lead them to the passages in <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> (as well as others) that could be re-read as foretelling Jesus.  By appealing to these <em>Jewish</em> scriptures for <em>Christian</em> theology, they had created the first connection between scriptures and <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a>: one had to believe in the death of Christ as a symbol of the Passover lamb.  By making this first connection, Christianity treated <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> now as <em>Christian</em> scriptures; the first cycle.  Within just 100 years, this cycle was completed again as <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> included the virgin birth, the divinity of Jesus, and the human incarnation of God.  By 400 CE, <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/isaiah/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Isaiah">Isaiah</a> was so integral to <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> that it had gained acceptance throughout Christianity.  This was the case with most of the books accepted into the canon at the second Council of Carthage.</p>
<p><strong>Changes and Alterations</strong><br />
There are also cases where <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> has changed scriptures, either by removing texts from the canon or modifying the actual texts.  One such instance is the story of Bel and the Dragon from the Septuagint .  Not only was this text attested by fathers of <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> (Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen) [Lee McDonald, The Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon (Peabody, MA: Hendrickson, 1995): 103], but it was also accepted at the Council of Carthage.  It was removed during the Reformation first by protestants in their struggle to return to the Jewish scriptures, even though it appears in the original 1611 Authorized Version as well as being listed in the <em>Thirty-nine Articles</em> of the Church of England.</p>
<p>There is also a second form of <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> interacting with scripture: deliberate alterations.  In the Gospel of <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/luke/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Luke">Luke</a>&#8217;s account of Jesus&#8217; baptism, there is a point where God speaks from the heavens saying &#8220;You are my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased&#8221; [<a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/luke/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Luke">Luke</a> 3:23, NRSV].  Yet many early variants record God saying &#8220;You are my Son, today I have begotten you.&#8221;  Bart <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/ehrman/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Ehrman">Ehrman</a> believes that this variant is the earlier, more original text which was changed in order to prevent an adoptionist reading of the passage [Bart <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/ehrman/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Ehrman">Ehrman</a>, Misquoting Jesus (New York: HarperOne, 2005): 159-160].  It is highly likely that this is the case, but it brings up the question on how <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> and scripture should interact.</p>
<p>Theologians today seem to suggest that it should be a simple relationship indicated by fidelity to the original texts (or what we can gather as such) coupled with studious translation and <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/interpretation/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with interpretation">interpretation</a> to that.  On the other hand, history has consistently suggested that <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> and scripture should define and change the other, even at the cost of losing the most original documents.  It may be better to see scriptures &#8220;not primarily as a chronicle but as a testimony of faith in the One who identified himself to Moses from the burning bush&#8221; [Jaroslav Pelikan, Whose Bible is it? (New York: Penguin, 2005): 31].</p>
<p><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/tradition/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with Tradition">Tradition</a> is arguably the most important aspect for the longevity of a religion.  While it is normally seen as the handing down of beliefs from one generation to the next, it should also be seen as that which is handed down, particularly the interaction between <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> and scriptures.  This interaction is a never-ending cycle of alteration and redefining, sometimes subtle (and sometimes not-so-subtle).  The relation most often seen is scriptures defining <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a>.  Yet the reciprocal also happens, perhaps more often than some admit; <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/orthodoxy/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with orthodoxy">orthodoxy</a> changes scriptures through either <a href="http://zealfortruth.org/tag/interpretation/" class="st_tag internal_tag" rel="tag nofollow" title="Posts tagged with interpretation">interpretation</a> or in modifying the set of accepted scriptures.  These two functions play on each repetition of each other throughout multiple generations.  Whereas some people see this as problematic, it should be embraced as an integral part of the nature of religious movements as they are concerned ultimately with the nonphysical, be it God, nirvana, rebirth, or the end of ages.  Faith is not a matter of fidelity to a group of texts but rather that which inspired those texts.</p>
<fieldset><legend>Series Navigation</legend><span class="series-nav-left"><a href="http://zealfortruth.org/2008/04/tradition-theology/" title="&laquo;Tradition &#038; Theology">&laquo;Tradition &#038; Theology</a></span><span class="series-nav-right"></span></fieldset>				</div><!-- .entry-content -->

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		<h4><span id="comments">10</span> Responses to &#8220;Tradition &#038; Heresy&#8221;</h4>

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=41" rel="nofollow">Jew</a></span>

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				<p>So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?</p>
 
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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=284" rel="nofollow">Chris A</a></span>

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				<p>Another excellent article, cchrisr. </p>
<p>&#8220;So if orthodoxy changes scriptures, how much confidence can we have in the Bible?&#8221;</p>
<p>Do you mean orthodoxy changing what is considered to be scripture or orthodoxy changing the interpretation of scripture?</p>
 
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				<p>I mean deliberate alterations of the text.</p>
 
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				<p>&#8220;I mean deliberate alterations of the text.&#8221;</p>
<p>I too find that quite troubling, but I&#8217;m only aware of a handful of instances of this. None of them that I know of alter the message to the text to the  extent that it would affect theology in a major way.</p>
 
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				<p>As Chris A said, many of the instances where orthodoxy deliberately changed the text had minimal (if any) impact on theology.  In fact, most often it was to exclude what general orthodoxy considered aberrant or heterodox interpretations of small texts. The example I provided in Luke is a perfect depiction of this because the &#8220;proto-orthodox&#8221; had already considered the adoptionist reading incorrect based on other verses.  It has almost always been an attempt to homogenize Scriptures so that the resulting theology is homogenized.</p>
 
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				<p>OK. That makes sense. So should we presume that the original text is the real text, or does orthodoxy actually change the text and make the new text the real text? To put it another way: if one believes the Bible is inspired by God, are the updated phrases inspired? Which is the real Scripture?</p>
 
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				<p>One of the points implicit in this series is that all of this (orthodoxy, Scriptures, and even interpretations) all stem from tradition (see the first two parts).  Tradition often gets a bad reputation in Protestant circles (largely because of the battle cry of <i>sola Scriptura</i>), but it&#8217;s just as pervasive and important.  Without tradition, there is no such thing as orthodoxy or Scriptures.  I&#8217;d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are &#8220;inspired by God&#8221; and which are not.  It&#8217;s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).</p>
 
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				<span class="comment-author">Chris Austere</span>

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				<p>&#8220;I’d say that whichever tradition one is in determines which texts are “inspired by God” and which are not. It’s the reason why we see different canons in different Christian traditions (Greek Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Coptic Orthodox, etc).&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s where I have to disagree, while I think I understand where you&#8217;re coming from. Basically either God inspired it or he didn&#8217;t &#8211; point blank. I understand that different Christian traditions will view things differently, but that should not be interpreted to mean that God inspired the apocryphal books just because some choose to make those books part of their tradition. As to the question of how one determines which books are inspired, I&#8217;ll leave that up to someone else. Either way, men cannot ascertain the inspiration of God on the basis of traditional preference. Otherwise we use the phrase &#8220;inspired of God&#8221; entirely too loosely.</p>
 
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				<p>Chris, we do use the term &#8220;inspired by God&#8221; incorrectly.  Look at people such as Augustine and Origen: their &#8220;rule of faith&#8221; was all about the catechetical (and philosophical!) traditions that they were in.  It had nothing to do with the kind of literalism that permeates the church today.  So far, I&#8217;ve read through two of Augustine&#8217;s <i>Literal Interpretation on Genesis</i> (there&#8217;s still the large 2-volume work for me) and yet never does he find himself in the same interpretive camp as those who follow the Scottish Common Sense literalism. He even says point blank that (1) multiple interpretations are correct (this is further echoed in Book 12 of <i>Confessions</i>) and (2) his interpretation stems from his tradition which is largely a mixture of Neoplatonic philosophy and the strand of &#8220;literal interpretation&#8221; that comes through both Origen and Ambrose.  For him, God was &#8220;inspiring&#8221; the whole process, not just the writing of the text.</p>
 
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		<div class="comment byuser comment-author-chris-a odd alt thread-odd thread-alt depth-1 c-y2008 c-m05 c-d02 c-h03">

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				<span class="comment-author"><a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=284" rel="nofollow">Chris A</a></span>

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						May 1, 2008 ago.					</a>
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				<p>I figured you were coming from that perspective, given the use of quotation marks around the phrase.</p>
 
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