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	<title>Comments on: Be Ye Not Angry, Ever</title>
	<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:38:40 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6944</link>
		<author>Colin</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 13:57:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6944</guid>
					<description>Sharon, excellent. I will admit this is one of those pragmatic areas of the Christian walk that I sometimes miss - being generally caught up in the grand ideas and overarching themes of scripture. I have not drawn a conclusion on this yet, but over time, I find myself moving closer and closer to your position.

I have been reading Colossians on my own time and forced to consider this question (3:8 was part of yesterday). I think in a pure sense, that you are correct - but we must also define "anger." We see God "becoming angry" at times as well - and while this could be anthropomorphism on behalf of the authors, it could also be a very accurate term.

What is anger? For example, if Jesus cleansed the temple without anger, then what motivated him? John 2:17 implies that it was "zeal." I define this term as extreme loyalty/devotion to an idea or person. Perhaps this is what we are supposed to exercise in carrying out justice/correction/etc...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon, excellent. I will admit this is one of those pragmatic areas of the Christian walk that I sometimes miss - being generally caught up in the grand ideas and overarching themes of scripture. I have not drawn a conclusion on this yet, but over time, I find myself moving closer and closer to your position.</p>
<p>I have been reading Colossians on my own time and forced to consider this question (3:8 was part of yesterday). I think in a pure sense, that you are correct - but we must also define &#8220;anger.&#8221; We see God &#8220;becoming angry&#8221; at times as well - and while this could be anthropomorphism on behalf of the authors, it could also be a very accurate term.</p>
<p>What is anger? For example, if Jesus cleansed the temple without anger, then what motivated him? John 2:17 implies that it was &#8220;zeal.&#8221; I define this term as extreme loyalty/devotion to an idea or person. Perhaps this is what we are supposed to exercise in carrying out justice/correction/etc&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Austere</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6946</link>
		<author>Chris Austere</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 15:33:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6946</guid>
					<description>I agree with Colin that this is an excellent article. From my perspective, I think it is unrealistic to say you should never experience the emotion of anger. That would be like saying you should never be happy or sad. However, experiencing an emotion is different from responding according to that emotion. In other words, you can feel angry without giving someone the "finger" when they cut you off.

I think the important thing is to live a life consistent with the spiritual nature made available through the new birth, while avoiding the pitfalls of responding from the carnal nature. We know the two natures are at war with one another.

16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 

 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

(Galatians 5:16,17 NASB)

Although most traslations capitalize the word "spirit" in these verses, it is clear by reading this passage that Paul is contrasting the inner man (spirit) with the outer man (flesh). Notice what he says in verse 16. The King James says, "You will not fulfill the lust of the flesh." So we cannot reasonably expect not to be angry; we have no choice in the matter, but we can cultivate our spiritual life in such a way that the carnal desires of the flesh are not brought to full maturity resulting in foolish action. This is how anger is controlled, not avoided altogether. However, I would add that spiritually mature people are less likely to get angry in situations where others might.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Colin that this is an excellent article. From my perspective, I think it is unrealistic to say you should never experience the emotion of anger. That would be like saying you should never be happy or sad. However, experiencing an emotion is different from responding according to that emotion. In other words, you can feel angry without giving someone the &#8220;finger&#8221; when they cut you off.</p>
<p>I think the important thing is to live a life consistent with the spiritual nature made available through the new birth, while avoiding the pitfalls of responding from the carnal nature. We know the two natures are at war with one another.</p>
<p>16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. </p>
<p> 17For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.</p>
<p>(Galatians 5:16,17 NASB)</p>
<p>Although most traslations capitalize the word &#8220;spirit&#8221; in these verses, it is clear by reading this passage that Paul is contrasting the inner man (spirit) with the outer man (flesh). Notice what he says in verse 16. The King James says, &#8220;You will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.&#8221; So we cannot reasonably expect not to be angry; we have no choice in the matter, but we can cultivate our spiritual life in such a way that the carnal desires of the flesh are not brought to full maturity resulting in foolish action. This is how anger is controlled, not avoided altogether. However, I would add that spiritually mature people are less likely to get angry in situations where others might.</p>
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		<title>By: thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6950</link>
		<author>thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 May 2008 21:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6950</guid>
					<description>Thank you for writing, Sharon.  I appreciate you taking the time to write and I'd like to hear more from you.

I think it is part of being human to experience all kinds and intensities of emotions, and experiencing a negative emotion in and of itself is not sin.  I think the sin is not in feeling any of the negative emotions, but rather what you do with them the moment you realize you have them.  (I take that same approach with thoughts which can turn sinful--the sin isn't that the bird flew over your head, it's that you let it build a nest in your hair.)  Cherishing and nurturing a negative emotion is when the sin happens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for writing, Sharon.  I appreciate you taking the time to write and I&#8217;d like to hear more from you.</p>
<p>I think it is part of being human to experience all kinds and intensities of emotions, and experiencing a negative emotion in and of itself is not sin.  I think the sin is not in feeling any of the negative emotions, but rather what you do with them the moment you realize you have them.  (I take that same approach with thoughts which can turn sinful&#8211;the sin isn&#8217;t that the bird flew over your head, it&#8217;s that you let it build a nest in your hair.)  Cherishing and nurturing a negative emotion is when the sin happens.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6955</link>
		<author>Sharon</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 00:43:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6955</guid>
					<description>Chris and Thainamu, of course you're right that it's human and normal to experience emotions, including anger.  What perplexes me more and what I tried to address in this article is the idea that righteous anger is a Godly trait we should have in our lives.

&lt;i&gt;We see God “becoming angry” at times as well - and while this could be anthropomorphism on behalf of the authors, it could also be a very accurate term.

What is anger? For example, if Jesus cleansed the temple without anger, then what motivated him? John 2:17 implies that it was “zeal.”&lt;/i&gt;

Colin, your substituting "zeal" for "anger" is helpful for me in thinking about this.  I wonder if zeal and anger are distinct for God as they seem to be for us.  It's hard sometimes to view life from God's perspective rather than the human one I'm caught up in.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris and Thainamu, of course you&#8217;re right that it&#8217;s human and normal to experience emotions, including anger.  What perplexes me more and what I tried to address in this article is the idea that righteous anger is a Godly trait we should have in our lives.</p>
<p><i>We see God “becoming angry” at times as well - and while this could be anthropomorphism on behalf of the authors, it could also be a very accurate term.</p>
<p>What is anger? For example, if Jesus cleansed the temple without anger, then what motivated him? John 2:17 implies that it was “zeal.”</i></p>
<p>Colin, your substituting &#8220;zeal&#8221; for &#8220;anger&#8221; is helpful for me in thinking about this.  I wonder if zeal and anger are distinct for God as they seem to be for us.  It&#8217;s hard sometimes to view life from God&#8217;s perspective rather than the human one I&#8217;m caught up in.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Austere</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6956</link>
		<author>Chris Austere</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 May 2008 02:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6956</guid>
					<description>"Chris and Thainamu, of course you’re right that it’s human and normal to experience emotions, including anger. What perplexes me more and what I tried to address in this article is the idea that righteous anger is a Godly trait we should have in our lives."

Yeah, that is a very valid question. I think that what most people call righteous indignation is really the "wrath of man". They think that calling their anger righteous excuses their stupid actions and statements. If I ever think my anger is righteous in any way I keep it to myself, because I am probably wrong. 

I do think that righteous anger is real and can have its place. And it is obvious to me that Jesus exhibited this when he overturned the money changers' tables, etc. I think if you asked the people whose tables were turned over, they would agree that this was indeed anger. As to whether they thought it was righteous is a different question. 

I think Paul also exhibited this kind of anger when he confronted Peter about his fraternizing with the Jewish religious hierarchy. Notice how when Paul recalls the event in Galatians 2, he is completely unapologetic.

 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? (NIV)

I guess someone could argue that Paul was not angry when he confronted Peter, but I just don't believe that. He basically called the man a hypocrite in front of everyone. Really I think every rebuke has an element of anger to it. Otherwise who would take you seriously?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Chris and Thainamu, of course you’re right that it’s human and normal to experience emotions, including anger. What perplexes me more and what I tried to address in this article is the idea that righteous anger is a Godly trait we should have in our lives.&#8221;</p>
<p>Yeah, that is a very valid question. I think that what most people call righteous indignation is really the &#8220;wrath of man&#8221;. They think that calling their anger righteous excuses their stupid actions and statements. If I ever think my anger is righteous in any way I keep it to myself, because I am probably wrong. </p>
<p>I do think that righteous anger is real and can have its place. And it is obvious to me that Jesus exhibited this when he overturned the money changers&#8217; tables, etc. I think if you asked the people whose tables were turned over, they would agree that this was indeed anger. As to whether they thought it was righteous is a different question. </p>
<p>I think Paul also exhibited this kind of anger when he confronted Peter about his fraternizing with the Jewish religious hierarchy. Notice how when Paul recalls the event in Galatians 2, he is completely unapologetic.</p>
<p> 11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray. 14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, &#8220;You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs? (NIV)</p>
<p>I guess someone could argue that Paul was not angry when he confronted Peter, but I just don&#8217;t believe that. He basically called the man a hypocrite in front of everyone. Really I think every rebuke has an element of anger to it. Otherwise who would take you seriously?</p>
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		<title>By: Don Emmerich</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6990</link>
		<author>Don Emmerich</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 May 2008 09:17:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-6990</guid>
					<description>Sharon --

Thank you so much for this very thoughtful and thought-provoking article!

I think Chris Austere is onto something when he gives the example of Paul being angry; one doesn’t have to look hard to find other examples of Paul’s anger (e.g., when he wishes that the Judaizers would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!).  One also doesn’t have to look hard to find examples of David being angry, or Moses, or Phineas (from Numbers), or many other saints from the Bible.  

There’s no question in my mind that righteous anger is possible.  In fact, I would argue that one is not being a very good Christian if he never gets angry.  How can a good man see his brother being treated unjustly and not get upset?  How can a good man hear a report of another man mercilessly beating his wife and children and not be indignant?  

That said, I think Christians need to strive to avoid anger.  Anger will come, whether we like it or not.  Sometimes the anger will be righteous, usually it will be unrighteous.  This is how I interpret the commands from Paul which you referenced.  From Eph. 4.26, we know that Paul doesn’t think all anger is sinful.  But then he goes on to tell Christians to get rid of the anger from their lives, probably because he knows the human heart and knows, therefore, that anger usually leads to sin.  Anger isn’t itself sinful; anger doesn’t necessarily lead to sin; but anger usually leads to sin, and, therefore, Paul tells us that we ought to just stay away from it.  

In the same way, a pastor might instruct a young man not to walk by a porn shop--not because walking by the porn shop is inherently wrong (old ladies walk by it all the time without the slightest problem), but because walking by the shop tends to cause problems for that particular young man.  

That’s my take on it, anyway.  

So, on a practical level, I absolutely agree with you.  Like you, I try to avoid anger--simply because I know my own heart and know that anger is almost always a destructive force in my life.  

But that doesn’t mean I think righteous anger is impossible.  Rare among fallen humans, yes--but not impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sharon &#8211;</p>
<p>Thank you so much for this very thoughtful and thought-provoking article!</p>
<p>I think Chris Austere is onto something when he gives the example of Paul being angry; one doesn’t have to look hard to find other examples of Paul’s anger (e.g., when he wishes that the Judaizers would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!).  One also doesn’t have to look hard to find examples of David being angry, or Moses, or Phineas (from Numbers), or many other saints from the Bible.  </p>
<p>There’s no question in my mind that righteous anger is possible.  In fact, I would argue that one is not being a very good Christian if he never gets angry.  How can a good man see his brother being treated unjustly and not get upset?  How can a good man hear a report of another man mercilessly beating his wife and children and not be indignant?  </p>
<p>That said, I think Christians need to strive to avoid anger.  Anger will come, whether we like it or not.  Sometimes the anger will be righteous, usually it will be unrighteous.  This is how I interpret the commands from Paul which you referenced.  From Eph. 4.26, we know that Paul doesn’t think all anger is sinful.  But then he goes on to tell Christians to get rid of the anger from their lives, probably because he knows the human heart and knows, therefore, that anger usually leads to sin.  Anger isn’t itself sinful; anger doesn’t necessarily lead to sin; but anger usually leads to sin, and, therefore, Paul tells us that we ought to just stay away from it.  </p>
<p>In the same way, a pastor might instruct a young man not to walk by a porn shop&#8211;not because walking by the porn shop is inherently wrong (old ladies walk by it all the time without the slightest problem), but because walking by the shop tends to cause problems for that particular young man.  </p>
<p>That’s my take on it, anyway.  </p>
<p>So, on a practical level, I absolutely agree with you.  Like you, I try to avoid anger&#8211;simply because I know my own heart and know that anger is almost always a destructive force in my life.  </p>
<p>But that doesn’t mean I think righteous anger is impossible.  Rare among fallen humans, yes&#8211;but not impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Sharon</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-7033</link>
		<author>Sharon</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 May 2008 02:44:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/05/be-ye-not-angry-ever/#comment-7033</guid>
					<description>Good points, Chris and Don.  Rebuke and indignation seem to lose something essential to their nature when anger is taken completely out.

I wonder if anger could exist if sin did not exist.  But that's probably a pointless question, at least, as of Genesis 3.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Chris and Don.  Rebuke and indignation seem to lose something essential to their nature when anger is taken completely out.</p>
<p>I wonder if anger could exist if sin did not exist.  But that&#8217;s probably a pointless question, at least, as of Genesis 3.</p>
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