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	<title>Comments on: Ladies, Always a Bridesmaid, Never a Bride?</title>
	<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/</link>
	<description></description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jasen Tracy</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5802</link>
		<author>Jasen Tracy</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:08:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5802</guid>
					<description>Is there a market for books for men who want to get married?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there a market for books for men who want to get married?</p>
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		<title>By: Thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5803</link>
		<author>Thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 31 Mar 2008 23:25:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5803</guid>
					<description>If men wanted to get married, there wouldn't be these books for women, duh. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If men wanted to get married, there wouldn&#8217;t be these books for women, duh. <img src='http://zealfortruth.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5804</link>
		<author>Thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5804</guid>
					<description>Dear editor, "hott" was intentional.  I just want everyone to know how up-to-date I am with the lingo.

(I've learned so much from www.urbandictionary.com) :eek:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear editor, &#8220;hott&#8221; was intentional.  I just want everyone to know how up-to-date I am with the lingo.</p>
<p>(I&#8217;ve learned so much from <a href="http://www.urbandictionary.com" rel="nofollow">www.urbandictionary.com</a>) <img src='http://zealfortruth.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_surprised.gif' alt=':eek:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5806</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 00:19:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5806</guid>
					<description>I changed it back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I changed it back.</p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5825</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 17:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5825</guid>
					<description>Criticisms:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Don’t be embarrassed because you want to marry, and don’t hesitate to publicly say that you want to marry&lt;/blockquote&gt;
At the same time, don't put your life on hold waiting for a spouse. This is the same problem as waiting to get involved in ministry or waiting to give until you're rich. The fact that you want something else long term doesn't excuse anyone from wasting your life in the present. This doesn't mean "create a career", instead it means "do something worthwhile with your time".

&lt;blockquote&gt;Don’t aim so high—not every one marries their “soul mate.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;
It is fully reasonable for any person to expect the person they marry to be 100% devoted to them. Compromises like "he doesn't care about my feelings" won't get better over time. When I married, I specifically stated in my vows that I was willing to give up all my plans for the future for my wife's interests if necessary, and I don't think that's something unreasonable to expect. Marriage becomes our highest calling and commitment when we get married, and no amount of excuses justify setting something else as a higher priority. It is NOT unreasonable to expect this level of commitment.

&lt;blockquote&gt;# There may come a point in a relationship when you have to force the issue—don’t let a guy hang around too long without stating his intentions.
# Don’t stay in a going-nowhere relationship, even if it means being alone for a while.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Honestly, questions about "when do you think you'd be willing to marry" are discussions that I think should come up in the first month of dating. If one person wants to wait a few years while the other is actively ready, they shouldn't date. I didn't date anyone "seriously" until I was ready to marry, and once I married the next person I dated. Ask where someone is, and only date them if you have compatible goals.

Everything else looks good. The main problem I think most people have in dating is lack of communication. Don't try to "trick" the guy into getting married, but ask him what his plans are. If he tells you he's planning not to marry until after graduate school, and you want to get married now, maybe you should date someone else. Look for compatible goals, someone willing to make a strong commitment to his future spouse, and someone with whom you get along. Don't marry anyone who doesn't view marriage as the strongest commitment they will ever make, and one which is irrevocable and unconditional (barring abuse or infidelity).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Criticisms:</p>
<blockquote><p>Don’t be embarrassed because you want to marry, and don’t hesitate to publicly say that you want to marry</p></blockquote>
<p>At the same time, don&#8217;t put your life on hold waiting for a spouse. This is the same problem as waiting to get involved in ministry or waiting to give until you&#8217;re rich. The fact that you want something else long term doesn&#8217;t excuse anyone from wasting your life in the present. This doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;create a career&#8221;, instead it means &#8220;do something worthwhile with your time&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>Don’t aim so high—not every one marries their “soul mate.”</p></blockquote>
<p>It is fully reasonable for any person to expect the person they marry to be 100% devoted to them. Compromises like &#8220;he doesn&#8217;t care about my feelings&#8221; won&#8217;t get better over time. When I married, I specifically stated in my vows that I was willing to give up all my plans for the future for my wife&#8217;s interests if necessary, and I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s something unreasonable to expect. Marriage becomes our highest calling and commitment when we get married, and no amount of excuses justify setting something else as a higher priority. It is NOT unreasonable to expect this level of commitment.</p>
<blockquote><p># There may come a point in a relationship when you have to force the issue—don’t let a guy hang around too long without stating his intentions.<br />
# Don’t stay in a going-nowhere relationship, even if it means being alone for a while.</p></blockquote>
<p>Honestly, questions about &#8220;when do you think you&#8217;d be willing to marry&#8221; are discussions that I think should come up in the first month of dating. If one person wants to wait a few years while the other is actively ready, they shouldn&#8217;t date. I didn&#8217;t date anyone &#8220;seriously&#8221; until I was ready to marry, and once I married the next person I dated. Ask where someone is, and only date them if you have compatible goals.</p>
<p>Everything else looks good. The main problem I think most people have in dating is lack of communication. Don&#8217;t try to &#8220;trick&#8221; the guy into getting married, but ask him what his plans are. If he tells you he&#8217;s planning not to marry until after graduate school, and you want to get married now, maybe you should date someone else. Look for compatible goals, someone willing to make a strong commitment to his future spouse, and someone with whom you get along. Don&#8217;t marry anyone who doesn&#8217;t view marriage as the strongest commitment they will ever make, and one which is irrevocable and unconditional (barring abuse or infidelity).</p>
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		<title>By: Thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5834</link>
		<author>Thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5834</guid>
					<description>Atanamis said, "If he tells you he’s planning not to marry until after graduate school, and you want to get married now, maybe you should date someone else."

I think this is very good advice, but this is probably one of the hardest things for a young woman to do.  For instance, if she loves the guy she's dating and he says "I'm not ready," then her thinking goes something like this:  "I love him, God says love is patient, so I just be patient and wait until he's ready."  I've known women who've done this very thing, and then a year later he dumps her anyway.  So in retrospect, she knows she should have ended the relationship herself, but since she loved him and was willing to hope for the best in him, she didn't.

That's why Watters urges women to make men get to the point, and be willing to be alone if they won't commit.  Not easy for them to do, but solid advice.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atanamis said, &#8220;If he tells you he’s planning not to marry until after graduate school, and you want to get married now, maybe you should date someone else.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is very good advice, but this is probably one of the hardest things for a young woman to do.  For instance, if she loves the guy she&#8217;s dating and he says &#8220;I&#8217;m not ready,&#8221; then her thinking goes something like this:  &#8220;I love him, God says love is patient, so I just be patient and wait until he&#8217;s ready.&#8221;  I&#8217;ve known women who&#8217;ve done this very thing, and then a year later he dumps her anyway.  So in retrospect, she knows she should have ended the relationship herself, but since she loved him and was willing to hope for the best in him, she didn&#8217;t.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why Watters urges women to make men get to the point, and be willing to be alone if they won&#8217;t commit.  Not easy for them to do, but solid advice.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius T</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5835</link>
		<author>Darius T</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Apr 2008 20:13:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5835</guid>
					<description>Contrast that with Elisabeth and Jim Eliot... he said he wanted to wait to pursue his calling... so they both trusted God and waited... and were rewarded with marriage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Contrast that with Elisabeth and Jim Eliot&#8230; he said he wanted to wait to pursue his calling&#8230; so they both trusted God and waited&#8230; and were rewarded with marriage.</p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5845</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 03:03:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5845</guid>
					<description>Yeah, I'm not a big fan of waiting for someone else to "be ready". There are ALWAYS other fish in the sea, and waiting for the person you have a crush on to "get it" and decide to marry you is not rational. Culturally, we like the whole "love isn't rational" mantra, which is why we end up with so many divorces. Find someone with reasonably compatible goals, determine that you are both willing to put up with one another's faults, ensure that you both view marriage as a solemn commitment to put the other person's needs first, and get married. This whole idea that someone needs to "fall in love" with their "one and only soul mate" primarily just gives people an excuse to "trade up" when they get sick of the one they're with. Dating should never be a comparative event. You don't go out looking for the best you can get, you determine what you want and buy it when you find it. Then you don't sit around wondering whether you could have done better. At the same time, compromise on the essentials (like common faith and total commitment), and you're in for a great deal of misery.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I&#8217;m not a big fan of waiting for someone else to &#8220;be ready&#8221;. There are ALWAYS other fish in the sea, and waiting for the person you have a crush on to &#8220;get it&#8221; and decide to marry you is not rational. Culturally, we like the whole &#8220;love isn&#8217;t rational&#8221; mantra, which is why we end up with so many divorces. Find someone with reasonably compatible goals, determine that you are both willing to put up with one another&#8217;s faults, ensure that you both view marriage as a solemn commitment to put the other person&#8217;s needs first, and get married. This whole idea that someone needs to &#8220;fall in love&#8221; with their &#8220;one and only soul mate&#8221; primarily just gives people an excuse to &#8220;trade up&#8221; when they get sick of the one they&#8217;re with. Dating should never be a comparative event. You don&#8217;t go out looking for the best you can get, you determine what you want and buy it when you find it. Then you don&#8217;t sit around wondering whether you could have done better. At the same time, compromise on the essentials (like common faith and total commitment), and you&#8217;re in for a great deal of misery.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5870</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:05:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5870</guid>
					<description>Get Married is more than just chiding single women to stop being so picky and get married.  It's a much needed challenge to the church to stop being such an obstacle to those who want to marry.  Watters takes on the "you're making an idol out of marriage" admonishment that marriage-desiring singles get flogged with in their churches.  Unfortunately, the church has imitated the larger culture in trivializing the earnest desire for marriage.  

Another book that challenges the dismissiveness toward marriage in the church is "Getting Serious About Getting Married: Rethinking the Gift of Singleness", by Debbie Maken.  She shows that the "gift of singleness" is a catch-phrase invented by modern pundits that has no basis in scripture (it's actually a misinterpretation of 1 Cor 7:7 embellished by the Living Bible in the 70's).  Previous generations of Christians never considered singleness to be a gift, but rather a choice for those who had the gift of celibacy (better, the gift of being able to contain oneself sexually) for the sake of doing kingdom work.  

Unfortunately, the GoS has taken on a life of its own and become a kind of "rogue theology" that has led many to doubt whether or not God wants them to pursue marriage.  As if marriage and singleness were gifts that you have to "wait on the Lord" to receive.  This has had a paralysing effect on many believers, male and female alike.  And that's why Watters wrote her book.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get Married is more than just chiding single women to stop being so picky and get married.  It&#8217;s a much needed challenge to the church to stop being such an obstacle to those who want to marry.  Watters takes on the &#8220;you&#8217;re making an idol out of marriage&#8221; admonishment that marriage-desiring singles get flogged with in their churches.  Unfortunately, the church has imitated the larger culture in trivializing the earnest desire for marriage.  </p>
<p>Another book that challenges the dismissiveness toward marriage in the church is &#8220;Getting Serious About Getting Married: Rethinking the Gift of Singleness&#8221;, by Debbie Maken.  She shows that the &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; is a catch-phrase invented by modern pundits that has no basis in scripture (it&#8217;s actually a misinterpretation of 1 Cor 7:7 embellished by the Living Bible in the 70&#8217;s).  Previous generations of Christians never considered singleness to be a gift, but rather a choice for those who had the gift of celibacy (better, the gift of being able to contain oneself sexually) for the sake of doing kingdom work.  </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the GoS has taken on a life of its own and become a kind of &#8220;rogue theology&#8221; that has led many to doubt whether or not God wants them to pursue marriage.  As if marriage and singleness were gifts that you have to &#8220;wait on the Lord&#8221; to receive.  This has had a paralysing effect on many believers, male and female alike.  And that&#8217;s why Watters wrote her book.</p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5871</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Apr 2008 19:53:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5871</guid>
					<description>It is very easy to confirm Paul's view of his own singleness as a gift, and the Roman Catholic Church's expectation that its priests not marry throughout recent history has been based on this understanding. The idea that the "gift of singleness" language is a recent creation is simply ignorant of history.

That said, there is nothing wrong with openly pursuing marriage, and within one year of my decision that I was "ready to marry" (due to spiritual, emotional, and fiscal readiness), I was dating the woman I married. We married two years later, six months longer than I would have preferred because I didn't feel my wife was ready when I was (she is younger than me, and also had some issues she needed to address in her life).

There is nothing wrong with desiring to be married, preparing yourself to be a good spouse, and determining what is needed to make a good marriage. There is everything wrong with deciding to be miserable until you are married, wasting your life until marriage, using trickery to dupe someone into marrying you, or rushing into something when waiting a year or two will make it a far better experience. Divorce rates show that marriages over age 25 are more than twice as successful as marriages BELOW age 25 (median marriage age for women). Marriages below age 25 have something like a 75% fail rate, while those after have a 25% fail rate. This would likely drop further if we looked only at first time marriages. Waiting until 25 to marry is not a bad thing to do. 

Take your time and do it right, or join the statistically identical number of failed Christian marriages (compared to overall averages). Marriage is a precious thing, Christians need to start taking it seriously again instead of viewing it as some kind of game (like our culture does).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is very easy to confirm Paul&#8217;s view of his own singleness as a gift, and the Roman Catholic Church&#8217;s expectation that its priests not marry throughout recent history has been based on this understanding. The idea that the &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; language is a recent creation is simply ignorant of history.</p>
<p>That said, there is nothing wrong with openly pursuing marriage, and within one year of my decision that I was &#8220;ready to marry&#8221; (due to spiritual, emotional, and fiscal readiness), I was dating the woman I married. We married two years later, six months longer than I would have preferred because I didn&#8217;t feel my wife was ready when I was (she is younger than me, and also had some issues she needed to address in her life).</p>
<p>There is nothing wrong with desiring to be married, preparing yourself to be a good spouse, and determining what is needed to make a good marriage. There is everything wrong with deciding to be miserable until you are married, wasting your life until marriage, using trickery to dupe someone into marrying you, or rushing into something when waiting a year or two will make it a far better experience. Divorce rates show that marriages over age 25 are more than twice as successful as marriages BELOW age 25 (median marriage age for women). Marriages below age 25 have something like a 75% fail rate, while those after have a 25% fail rate. This would likely drop further if we looked only at first time marriages. Waiting until 25 to marry is not a bad thing to do. </p>
<p>Take your time and do it right, or join the statistically identical number of failed Christian marriages (compared to overall averages). Marriage is a precious thing, Christians need to start taking it seriously again instead of viewing it as some kind of game (like our culture does).</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5938</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5938</guid>
					<description>"It is very easy to confirm Paul’s view of his own singleness as a gift, and the Roman Catholic Church’s expectation that its priests not marry throughout recent history has been based on this understanding. The idea that the “gift of singleness” language is a recent creation is simply ignorant of history."

The gift that you are referring to has traditionally been called "the gift of celibacy", NOT "the gift of singleness", which is an entirely modern invention.

Even calling it "the gift of celibacy" is dubious, because Paul never called it that.  Besides, what is that supposed to mean? Some assume that God removes sexual desire in those who undertake celibacy (history has proven otherwise). It could mean a passion for a mission that exceeds one's desire for marriage. We simply don't know what Paul was referring to specifically in 1 Cor 7:7: he does not name it.  Verse 7 in the original Greek reads closest to: 

“I wish that all men were as I am. However, God give to each their own particular grace gift, one like so, one like so…”

Verse 7 is actually a rather inconsequential verse, a preambulary disclaimer, if you will, to verses 8 &#38; 9 that contain the meat of Paul’s message (which is clearly about giving wisdom to the individual in letting him/her make their own decision about whether or not to get married): “therefore to the unmarried I say it is good to remain as you are, but if they cannot contain, let them marry for it is better to marry than to burn”.  

Those not "ignorant of history" should know that these passages have been used and abused for centuries to justify all kinds of erroneous teachings. But indeed, the phrase "gift of singleness" did not make its appearance until the mid 20th century, with the arrival of the Living Bible.

***

About early marriage, the reason why so many fail today is that there isn't enough of a critical mass of young people getting married, necessary to support young marriages.  In places where everybody marries young, youth is not a risk factor for divorce.  And btw, the issue of people "deciding to be miserable until you are married" is blown way out of proportion.  Candice Watters settles that one, once and for all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It is very easy to confirm Paul’s view of his own singleness as a gift, and the Roman Catholic Church’s expectation that its priests not marry throughout recent history has been based on this understanding. The idea that the “gift of singleness” language is a recent creation is simply ignorant of history.&#8221;</p>
<p>The gift that you are referring to has traditionally been called &#8220;the gift of celibacy&#8221;, NOT &#8220;the gift of singleness&#8221;, which is an entirely modern invention.</p>
<p>Even calling it &#8220;the gift of celibacy&#8221; is dubious, because Paul never called it that.  Besides, what is that supposed to mean? Some assume that God removes sexual desire in those who undertake celibacy (history has proven otherwise). It could mean a passion for a mission that exceeds one&#8217;s desire for marriage. We simply don&#8217;t know what Paul was referring to specifically in 1 Cor 7:7: he does not name it.  Verse 7 in the original Greek reads closest to: </p>
<p>“I wish that all men were as I am. However, God give to each their own particular grace gift, one like so, one like so…”</p>
<p>Verse 7 is actually a rather inconsequential verse, a preambulary disclaimer, if you will, to verses 8 &amp; 9 that contain the meat of Paul’s message (which is clearly about giving wisdom to the individual in letting him/her make their own decision about whether or not to get married): “therefore to the unmarried I say it is good to remain as you are, but if they cannot contain, let them marry for it is better to marry than to burn”.  </p>
<p>Those not &#8220;ignorant of history&#8221; should know that these passages have been used and abused for centuries to justify all kinds of erroneous teachings. But indeed, the phrase &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; did not make its appearance until the mid 20th century, with the arrival of the Living Bible.</p>
<p>***</p>
<p>About early marriage, the reason why so many fail today is that there isn&#8217;t enough of a critical mass of young people getting married, necessary to support young marriages.  In places where everybody marries young, youth is not a risk factor for divorce.  And btw, the issue of people &#8220;deciding to be miserable until you are married&#8221; is blown way out of proportion.  Candice Watters settles that one, once and for all.</p>
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		<title>By: Thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5939</link>
		<author>Thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 01:47:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5939</guid>
					<description>gortexgrrl is well-read on the topic of current Christian singles' scene.  I found a number of her reviews of books in this genre on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AZBD3ZC3TKIBF/ref=cm_aya_bb_pdp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gortexgrrl is well-read on the topic of current Christian singles&#8217; scene.  I found a number of her reviews of books in this genre on Amazon:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AZBD3ZC3TKIBF/ref=cm_aya_bb_pdp" rel="nofollow">http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AZBD3ZC3TKIBF/ref=cm_aya_bb_pdp</a></p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5941</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Apr 2008 05:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5941</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;The gift that you are referring to has traditionally been called “the gift of celibacy”, NOT “the gift of singleness”, which is an entirely modern invention.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Only in very modern times would the terms "celibacy" and "singleness" be considered as separate terms. The lack of historic clarity to what Paul meant does NOT mean that the modern interpretation is in any way new. This still feels like a blatant attempt to turn a historic discussion into a modern fad. We can argue all day about what Paul meant, but then such arguments have been occurring for 2000 years. This is not a "new" doctrine. Again, claiming otherwise is ignorant or dishonest.

Note that in cultures where girls married in their early teens to men in their 30s (such as in Biblical times), marriages had high success rates as well. Do you really think comparing vastly different cultures makes a strong point? In the US, marriages before 25 have twice as high a divorce rate. WHATEVER the cause, that statistic alone should not be idly ignored because it fails to match your self constructed view of how the world should work. It makes much more sense to look at how the world DOES work, and what the Bible states. Your opinions really aren't worth much when they contrast with these two sources.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The gift that you are referring to has traditionally been called “the gift of celibacy”, NOT “the gift of singleness”, which is an entirely modern invention.</p></blockquote>
<p>Only in very modern times would the terms &#8220;celibacy&#8221; and &#8220;singleness&#8221; be considered as separate terms. The lack of historic clarity to what Paul meant does NOT mean that the modern interpretation is in any way new. This still feels like a blatant attempt to turn a historic discussion into a modern fad. We can argue all day about what Paul meant, but then such arguments have been occurring for 2000 years. This is not a &#8220;new&#8221; doctrine. Again, claiming otherwise is ignorant or dishonest.</p>
<p>Note that in cultures where girls married in their early teens to men in their 30s (such as in Biblical times), marriages had high success rates as well. Do you really think comparing vastly different cultures makes a strong point? In the US, marriages before 25 have twice as high a divorce rate. WHATEVER the cause, that statistic alone should not be idly ignored because it fails to match your self constructed view of how the world should work. It makes much more sense to look at how the world DOES work, and what the Bible states. Your opinions really aren&#8217;t worth much when they contrast with these two sources.</p>
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		<title>By: Samwise</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5945</link>
		<author>Samwise</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 02:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5945</guid>
					<description>Thainamu, does this book address single mothers at all?  I've been considering this book as a gift for a couple of people I know but I'm not sure it would address their specific issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thainamu, does this book address single mothers at all?  I&#8217;ve been considering this book as a gift for a couple of people I know but I&#8217;m not sure it would address their specific issues.</p>
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		<title>By: thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5946</link>
		<author>thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Apr 2008 03:25:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5946</guid>
					<description>No, I don't recall the book really talking about or to single mothers or divorced women.  It seems like it was pretty much assumed the audience was never-married women.  I suppose much of it would still apply, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, I don&#8217;t recall the book really talking about or to single mothers or divorced women.  It seems like it was pretty much assumed the audience was never-married women.  I suppose much of it would still apply, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5992</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 18:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5992</guid>
					<description>Samwise, do you really believe a focus on marriage is wise for a single mother? A mother with children really does have a higher calling on her efforts than finding a spouse. I fully understand the argument of looking for a spouse rather than a career, but looking for a spouse rather than parenting your children just seems rather inappropriate. Is it really probable to put in the time needed to build a new romantic relationship without it having a negative impact on one's children? Also, second marriages have a VASTLY higher divorce rate than first marriages. If a single mother happens across a great guy who is willing to take on the monumental burden of dating (let alone marrying) as single mother, she is incredibly fortunate. Until this happens though, she needs to realize that single parenthood is one of those "mistakes" that literally take over your entire life leaving little room for other hope and dreams. Her every action should seek the best for her child, rather than her own personal interests.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samwise, do you really believe a focus on marriage is wise for a single mother? A mother with children really does have a higher calling on her efforts than finding a spouse. I fully understand the argument of looking for a spouse rather than a career, but looking for a spouse rather than parenting your children just seems rather inappropriate. Is it really probable to put in the time needed to build a new romantic relationship without it having a negative impact on one&#8217;s children? Also, second marriages have a VASTLY higher divorce rate than first marriages. If a single mother happens across a great guy who is willing to take on the monumental burden of dating (let alone marrying) as single mother, she is incredibly fortunate. Until this happens though, she needs to realize that single parenthood is one of those &#8220;mistakes&#8221; that literally take over your entire life leaving little room for other hope and dreams. Her every action should seek the best for her child, rather than her own personal interests.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5995</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:05:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5995</guid>
					<description>"Only in very modern times would the terms “celibacy” and “singleness” be considered as separate terms...We can argue all day about what Paul meant, but then such arguments have been occurring for 2000 years. This is not a “new” doctrine."

Celibacy (or better, chastity) is a biblical command for those who are single whether it be by circumstance or by choice.  Historically, celibacy on its own was never regarded as a gift, except for those who chose it for the sake of doing kingdom work (priesthood, religious orders).  As for those who were simply "single by circumstance" no one ever referred to that as "the gift of singleness" until the late 20th century.   

"Note that in cultures where girls married in their early teens to men in their 30s (such as in Biblical times), marriages had high success rates as well. Do you really think comparing vastly different cultures makes a strong point? In the US, marriages before 25 have twice as high a divorce rate. WHATEVER the cause, that statistic alone should not be idly ignored because it fails to match your self constructed view of how the world should work."

Actually, yes, I do think it's valid to compare other cultures to get an idea of how world &lt;i&gt;does&lt;/i&gt; work.  Not all comparisons are equally valid (nor am I saying that everyone should marry, let alone marry young), but it would be just as historically ignorant to assume that later marriage (a luxury afforded to many by recent technology) is some kind of ideal stumbled upon by modern westerners.  That would be a "self-constructed view of how the world should work" if there ever was one!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Only in very modern times would the terms “celibacy” and “singleness” be considered as separate terms&#8230;We can argue all day about what Paul meant, but then such arguments have been occurring for 2000 years. This is not a “new” doctrine.&#8221;</p>
<p>Celibacy (or better, chastity) is a biblical command for those who are single whether it be by circumstance or by choice.  Historically, celibacy on its own was never regarded as a gift, except for those who chose it for the sake of doing kingdom work (priesthood, religious orders).  As for those who were simply &#8220;single by circumstance&#8221; no one ever referred to that as &#8220;the gift of singleness&#8221; until the late 20th century.   </p>
<p>&#8220;Note that in cultures where girls married in their early teens to men in their 30s (such as in Biblical times), marriages had high success rates as well. Do you really think comparing vastly different cultures makes a strong point? In the US, marriages before 25 have twice as high a divorce rate. WHATEVER the cause, that statistic alone should not be idly ignored because it fails to match your self constructed view of how the world should work.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, yes, I do think it&#8217;s valid to compare other cultures to get an idea of how world <i>does</i> work.  Not all comparisons are equally valid (nor am I saying that everyone should marry, let alone marry young), but it would be just as historically ignorant to assume that later marriage (a luxury afforded to many by recent technology) is some kind of ideal stumbled upon by modern westerners.  That would be a &#8220;self-constructed view of how the world should work&#8221; if there ever was one!</p>
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		<title>By: thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5996</link>
		<author>thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-5996</guid>
					<description>Atanamis, I don't want to pick a fight with you, but I object to your assumption that a single mother would want to marry primarily for "romantic" reasons.  Doesn't it occur to you that she might also  be wanting to find her children a decent father?  It is just plain silly to set up a dichotomy of "looking for a spouse" vs. "parenting your children."  Children need fathers.  I applaud Christian men who can step up to the plate and marry a woman with children and take responsibility of immediate fatherhood.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Atanamis, I don&#8217;t want to pick a fight with you, but I object to your assumption that a single mother would want to marry primarily for &#8220;romantic&#8221; reasons.  Doesn&#8217;t it occur to you that she might also  be wanting to find her children a decent father?  It is just plain silly to set up a dichotomy of &#8220;looking for a spouse&#8221; vs. &#8220;parenting your children.&#8221;  Children need fathers.  I applaud Christian men who can step up to the plate and marry a woman with children and take responsibility of immediate fatherhood.</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6000</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 19:33:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6000</guid>
					<description>gortexgrrl, let me see if I understand what you're saying. You're saying that just because I happen to be single, that doesn't mean I have the gift of singleness. The gift of singleness (or gift of celibacy; the specific phrasing doesn't matter so much) is something completely different than temporary singleness. It is a state or quality of genuinely not needing marriage. God only grants that ability to some people. It's not the same as a person who needs marriage but isn't yet married.

And so your objection to the phrase "gift of singleness" is that it is generally applied to people who are temporarily single, but who do need to eventually get married. Those people get confused by the errant theology and proceed to question whether they should ever get married. You prefer the term "gift of celibacy" because it has less potential for confusion.

Is that a fair summary of what you believe?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gortexgrrl, let me see if I understand what you&#8217;re saying. You&#8217;re saying that just because I happen to be single, that doesn&#8217;t mean I have the gift of singleness. The gift of singleness (or gift of celibacy; the specific phrasing doesn&#8217;t matter so much) is something completely different than temporary singleness. It is a state or quality of genuinely not needing marriage. God only grants that ability to some people. It&#8217;s not the same as a person who needs marriage but isn&#8217;t yet married.</p>
<p>And so your objection to the phrase &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; is that it is generally applied to people who are temporarily single, but who do need to eventually get married. Those people get confused by the errant theology and proceed to question whether they should ever get married. You prefer the term &#8220;gift of celibacy&#8221; because it has less potential for confusion.</p>
<p>Is that a fair summary of what you believe?</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6005</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:04:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6005</guid>
					<description>&#62;  Correct. 

&#62;  I would say the phrasing does matter, otherwise you're comparing something ("temporary singleness") with something that does not exist (the "GoS").  Even the "gift of celibacy" is dubious, as one scholar (Kiwoong Son of London Bible College) puts it, "celibacy is not a gift. Celibacy is recommended to only those who have the gift of self-control."  

I'm not even suggesting that these individuals "have no need for marriage", but rather, they have gifts that, for whatever reason, render them greater sexual "containment" (see verse 8, 9), thus, as those verses suggest, they have the choice to remain unmarried.

&#62;  I would say that it's inappropriate to apply that phrase to anyone who wants to get married, whether their singleness turns out to be temporary or not.

&#62;  BINGO!  The GoS phrase keeps an unnecessary and erroneous theology of singleness alive.  All you need to do is google a blog search of the phrase "gift of singleness" to see the damage it's done.

&#62;  Actually, I object to both, again quoting Kiwoong Son of London Bible College, "celibacy is not a gift. Celibacy is recommended to only those who have the gift of self-control."  The GoC has also created confusion, leaving many to assume that just because someone is "called" to the priesthood, they automatically have "the gift of celibacy", when they may be no more gifted at sexual containment as the next person. 

In all, it's an exercise in why we need to be careful when we impute "terminology" onto the Bible.    

&#62;  Pretty close!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;  Correct. </p>
<p>&gt;  I would say the phrasing does matter, otherwise you&#8217;re comparing something (&#8221;temporary singleness&#8221;) with something that does not exist (the &#8220;GoS&#8221;).  Even the &#8220;gift of celibacy&#8221; is dubious, as one scholar (Kiwoong Son of London Bible College) puts it, &#8220;celibacy is not a gift. Celibacy is recommended to only those who have the gift of self-control.&#8221;  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not even suggesting that these individuals &#8220;have no need for marriage&#8221;, but rather, they have gifts that, for whatever reason, render them greater sexual &#8220;containment&#8221; (see verse 8, 9), thus, as those verses suggest, they have the choice to remain unmarried.</p>
<p>&gt;  I would say that it&#8217;s inappropriate to apply that phrase to anyone who wants to get married, whether their singleness turns out to be temporary or not.</p>
<p>&gt;  BINGO!  The GoS phrase keeps an unnecessary and erroneous theology of singleness alive.  All you need to do is google a blog search of the phrase &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; to see the damage it&#8217;s done.</p>
<p>&gt;  Actually, I object to both, again quoting Kiwoong Son of London Bible College, &#8220;celibacy is not a gift. Celibacy is recommended to only those who have the gift of self-control.&#8221;  The GoC has also created confusion, leaving many to assume that just because someone is &#8220;called&#8221; to the priesthood, they automatically have &#8220;the gift of celibacy&#8221;, when they may be no more gifted at sexual containment as the next person. </p>
<p>In all, it&#8217;s an exercise in why we need to be careful when we impute &#8220;terminology&#8221; onto the Bible.    </p>
<p>&gt;  Pretty close!</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6009</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Apr 2008 22:25:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6009</guid>
					<description>OK, that makes more sense. So neither the gift of singleness nor the gift of celibacy are mentioned in the Bible as such. Certainly neither are &lt;i&gt;spiritual&lt;/i&gt; gifts; they aren't mentioned in any list of spiritual gifts. At best, one can consider singleness as a gift in the sense that it's a stage of life God has allowed you to have (1 Cor 7:7) Similarly, marriage is a gift too--it's a stage of life God has given to you. Talking about the "gift of singleness" is on par with talking about the "gift of being 42 years old." It's really nothing more than your current situation in life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, that makes more sense. So neither the gift of singleness nor the gift of celibacy are mentioned in the Bible as such. Certainly neither are <i>spiritual</i> gifts; they aren&#8217;t mentioned in any list of spiritual gifts. At best, one can consider singleness as a gift in the sense that it&#8217;s a stage of life God has allowed you to have (1 Cor 7:7) Similarly, marriage is a gift too&#8211;it&#8217;s a stage of life God has given to you. Talking about the &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; is on par with talking about the &#8220;gift of being 42 years old.&#8221; It&#8217;s really nothing more than your current situation in life.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6011</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 01:23:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6011</guid>
					<description>"At best, one can consider singleness as a gift in the sense that it’s a stage of life God has allowed you to have (1 Cor 7:7)"  

Oh no, you're going back to very thing that I'm arguing against!

My point was that Paul was &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; referring to "life stages" or circumstances or marital status as being gifts in 1 Cor 7:7.  All he was doing in verse 7 was offering a personal disclaimer to the choices he was presenting in verse 8 and 9.  He basically saying that since we're all different, (ie. with different gifts --he doesn't get specific), &lt;i&gt;you decide&lt;/i&gt; if you want to get married or not.  

He repeats the same "you decide" message later in the chapter, in verse 36 "if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin" and verse 37 "But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well".  And the same to widows in verse 39, "But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes".

Again, with the voluntary "you decide" proviso, Paul offers a contextual rationale in verse 26 for why singleness might be preferable at that point in history: FOR THE SAKE OF &lt;i&gt;THE PRESENT DISTRESS&lt;/i&gt;.  "I think that in view of the present[g] distress(AI) it is good for a person to remain as he is."  But emphasizing in verse 28. "But if you do marry, you have not sinned"


Here's another thing: marriage is not referred to anywhere in the scriptures as "a gift", or "a stage of life God has given to you".  There's absolutely no biblical support for divine matchmaking.  Proverbs 19:14, which poetically states, "a prudent wife is from the LORD", and Hosea and Gomer are the often offered up as Old Testament examples, but there's nothing in the New Testament that suggests that marriage comes about by anything other than human effort and volition.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;At best, one can consider singleness as a gift in the sense that it’s a stage of life God has allowed you to have (1 Cor 7:7)&#8221;  </p>
<p>Oh no, you&#8217;re going back to very thing that I&#8217;m arguing against!</p>
<p>My point was that Paul was <i>not</i> referring to &#8220;life stages&#8221; or circumstances or marital status as being gifts in 1 Cor 7:7.  All he was doing in verse 7 was offering a personal disclaimer to the choices he was presenting in verse 8 and 9.  He basically saying that since we&#8217;re all different, (ie. with different gifts &#8211;he doesn&#8217;t get specific), <i>you decide</i> if you want to get married or not.  </p>
<p>He repeats the same &#8220;you decide&#8221; message later in the chapter, in verse 36 &#8220;if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: let them marry—it is no sin&#8221; and verse 37 &#8220;But whoever is firmly established in his heart, being under no necessity but having his desire under control, and has determined this in his heart, to keep her as his betrothed, he will do well&#8221;.  And the same to widows in verse 39, &#8220;But if her husband dies, she is free to be married to whom she wishes&#8221;.</p>
<p>Again, with the voluntary &#8220;you decide&#8221; proviso, Paul offers a contextual rationale in verse 26 for why singleness might be preferable at that point in history: FOR THE SAKE OF <i>THE PRESENT DISTRESS</i>.  &#8220;I think that in view of the present[g] distress(AI) it is good for a person to remain as he is.&#8221;  But emphasizing in verse 28. &#8220;But if you do marry, you have not sinned&#8221;</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s another thing: marriage is not referred to anywhere in the scriptures as &#8220;a gift&#8221;, or &#8220;a stage of life God has given to you&#8221;.  There&#8217;s absolutely no biblical support for divine matchmaking.  Proverbs 19:14, which poetically states, &#8220;a prudent wife is from the LORD&#8221;, and Hosea and Gomer are the often offered up as Old Testament examples, but there&#8217;s nothing in the New Testament that suggests that marriage comes about by anything other than human effort and volition.</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6012</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 02:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6012</guid>
					<description>Either I'm confused or you're contradicting yourself. What was the gift Paul alluded to in 1 Cor 7:7? He wouldn't have said something about gifts for no reason. If singleness or marriage aren't gifts, was Paul thinking about his own self-control when he said "I wish that all men were as I am." Because he's clearly implying that he has a particular gift that he wishes other people had.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Either I&#8217;m confused or you&#8217;re contradicting yourself. What was the gift Paul alluded to in 1 Cor 7:7? He wouldn&#8217;t have said something about gifts for no reason. If singleness or marriage aren&#8217;t gifts, was Paul thinking about his own self-control when he said &#8220;I wish that all men were as I am.&#8221; Because he&#8217;s clearly implying that he has a particular gift that he wishes other people had.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6014</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 03:27:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6014</guid>
					<description>"Either I’m confused or you’re contradicting yourself. What was the gift Paul alluded to in 1 Cor 7:7?"

Paul does not refer to any specific gift.  He said that we all have gifts, much the same way that you might say "to each, his own", another phrase that points to personal differences that result in personal preferences.

I would agree that Paul may have had his own facility for self-control or "containment" in mind when he wrote verse 7.  But he also might have had in mind his passion for his mission (that exceeded his desire for marriage).  But I think he's suggesting that his gift is sexual self-containment or control because... 

...from verses 2 to 5, he says "because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of &lt;i&gt;self-control.&lt;/i&gt;"

So although he's talking about marriage, he's talking about self-control in marriage.  A theme he repeats in verses 8 &#38; 9 when suggesting to singles that "it is good to remain as you are, but if they cannot &lt;i&gt;contain&lt;/i&gt;, let them marry for it is better to marry than to burn".

Again, it's his personal opinion, based on his own experience: 6 "Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another."  (his "no commandment from the Lord" is repeated in verse 25 to the never married, suggesting that for the present distress they remain as they are). Whereas, when he goes on to verse 10 to advise the married on the prohibitions on divorce, he says "To the married I give this charge &lt;i&gt;not I, but the Lord&lt;/i&gt;.  So there is no choice on that one.

Nowhere in chapter 7 does he speak of marriage and singleness as something that God gifts to anyone, or "calls" anyone to.  It's left as a matter of personal choice and effort, as it is elsewhere in the Bible: 

1 Cor 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord?

Proverbs 18:22 He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD.

Matthew 19:12 Some &lt;i&gt;make themselves&lt;/i&gt; eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom...


This is not to doubt the sovereignty of God or His work in our lives, but rather to show how modern Christians have over-spiritualized marriage and singleness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Either I’m confused or you’re contradicting yourself. What was the gift Paul alluded to in 1 Cor 7:7?&#8221;</p>
<p>Paul does not refer to any specific gift.  He said that we all have gifts, much the same way that you might say &#8220;to each, his own&#8221;, another phrase that points to personal differences that result in personal preferences.</p>
<p>I would agree that Paul may have had his own facility for self-control or &#8220;containment&#8221; in mind when he wrote verse 7.  But he also might have had in mind his passion for his mission (that exceeded his desire for marriage).  But I think he&#8217;s suggesting that his gift is sexual self-containment or control because&#8230; </p>
<p>&#8230;from verses 2 to 5, he says &#8220;because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of <i>self-control.</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>So although he&#8217;s talking about marriage, he&#8217;s talking about self-control in marriage.  A theme he repeats in verses 8 &amp; 9 when suggesting to singles that &#8220;it is good to remain as you are, but if they cannot <i>contain</i>, let them marry for it is better to marry than to burn&#8221;.</p>
<p>Again, it&#8217;s his personal opinion, based on his own experience: 6 &#8220;Now as a concession, not a command, I say this. 7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.&#8221;  (his &#8220;no commandment from the Lord&#8221; is repeated in verse 25 to the never married, suggesting that for the present distress they remain as they are). Whereas, when he goes on to verse 10 to advise the married on the prohibitions on divorce, he says &#8220;To the married I give this charge <i>not I, but the Lord</i>.  So there is no choice on that one.</p>
<p>Nowhere in chapter 7 does he speak of marriage and singleness as something that God gifts to anyone, or &#8220;calls&#8221; anyone to.  It&#8217;s left as a matter of personal choice and effort, as it is elsewhere in the Bible: </p>
<p>1 Cor 9:5 Do we not have the right to take along a believing wife, as do the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord?</p>
<p>Proverbs 18:22 He who finds a wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD.</p>
<p>Matthew 19:12 Some <i>make themselves</i> eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom&#8230;</p>
<p>This is not to doubt the sovereignty of God or His work in our lives, but rather to show how modern Christians have over-spiritualized marriage and singleness.</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6020</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 16:16:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6020</guid>
					<description>gortexgrrl wrote: "&lt;i&gt;Nowhere in chapter 7 does he speak of marriage and singleness as something that God gifts to anyone, or “calls” anyone to. It’s left as a matter of personal choice and effort, as it is elsewhere in the Bible&lt;/i&gt;"

OK, I think I understand. (I went and read some of your reviews on Amazon too.)

For the most part, I agree with you. The Living Bible does mistranslate the passage. I don't think that the phrase "gift of singleness" necessarily implies that erroneous view of Scripture, but perhaps it makes that misinterpretation more likely. But I never assumed that the "gift of singleness" was anything special, like the spiritual gifts which come from the Holy Spirit. I guess I don't see a problem with using the phrase, because I do understand that God gives us the ability to make our own choices in life. It's the same for other things in life. E.g., I consider my education to be a God-given gift, even though I chose to pursue a college degree and I put forth the effort to achieve that goal. I didn't get any special message from God telling me to do that. I made my own decision. Calling something a gift is not inconsistent with recognizing that the "gift" came out of personal initiative and personal choice.

But I agree with your main point, that we need to stop using the phrase "gift of singleness." It's not particularly helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gortexgrrl wrote: &#8220;<i>Nowhere in chapter 7 does he speak of marriage and singleness as something that God gifts to anyone, or “calls” anyone to. It’s left as a matter of personal choice and effort, as it is elsewhere in the Bible</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>OK, I think I understand. (I went and read some of your reviews on Amazon too.)</p>
<p>For the most part, I agree with you. The Living Bible does mistranslate the passage. I don&#8217;t think that the phrase &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; necessarily implies that erroneous view of Scripture, but perhaps it makes that misinterpretation more likely. But I never assumed that the &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; was anything special, like the spiritual gifts which come from the Holy Spirit. I guess I don&#8217;t see a problem with using the phrase, because I do understand that God gives us the ability to make our own choices in life. It&#8217;s the same for other things in life. E.g., I consider my education to be a God-given gift, even though I chose to pursue a college degree and I put forth the effort to achieve that goal. I didn&#8217;t get any special message from God telling me to do that. I made my own decision. Calling something a gift is not inconsistent with recognizing that the &#8220;gift&#8221; came out of personal initiative and personal choice.</p>
<p>But I agree with your main point, that we need to stop using the phrase &#8220;gift of singleness.&#8221; It&#8217;s not particularly helpful.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6023</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 17:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6023</guid>
					<description>Yeah, I guess anyone can call their own singleness a gift, just like most happily married people would call their spouse a gift, or you'd call your education a gift, cat a gift, etc.  Who am I to say that they shouldn't? 

Yet it seems like Christians over-apply the use of the word "gift", pretty much to the point where it has no meaning.  Recently on Boundless, there was a discussion about whether suffering is a gift.  Again, you could get philosophical and say that if it weren't for this bad thing happening (or that good thing not happening) then this or that good thing wouldn't have happened.  Or that God is using it all to His glory, which is true.

But for many people, their singleness is associated with suffering -- and, though not always, caused by sin (perhaps their own or someone else's, whether that's overly high standards or other issues that get in the way).  Even though God might allow suffering to happen (especially as a natural consequence of the choices of a person or people), calling it a gift both minimizes the gravity of the sin and the pain of the sufferer.         

When you take a concordance and see what the Bible does and does not call a gift, then you get real sense of how the word should and should not be used.  And nowhere is it used to describe suffering a gift (with the exception of persecution for the sake of the church).  Likewise, the circumstance or "season" of singleness is never referred to as a gift.

Surely, we are to make the best of whatever our circumstances, rejoicing and glorifying God in them. But when people who are in situations that ordinarily cause suffering make a point of claiming that their circumstances (be it unintended singleness or disability) are a gift, their attempts to be a "good example" too often place burdens on others who don't feel like they can be real about their suffering.  I think it's good to be able to talk about the advantages of an adverse situation and be grateful for those things, and of course to seek God's strength and trust that it will be given.  

But let's not mischaracterize the word "gift", because then it becomes meaningless.  If everything is a gift, then nothing is a gift.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I guess anyone can call their own singleness a gift, just like most happily married people would call their spouse a gift, or you&#8217;d call your education a gift, cat a gift, etc.  Who am I to say that they shouldn&#8217;t? </p>
<p>Yet it seems like Christians over-apply the use of the word &#8220;gift&#8221;, pretty much to the point where it has no meaning.  Recently on Boundless, there was a discussion about whether suffering is a gift.  Again, you could get philosophical and say that if it weren&#8217;t for this bad thing happening (or that good thing not happening) then this or that good thing wouldn&#8217;t have happened.  Or that God is using it all to His glory, which is true.</p>
<p>But for many people, their singleness is associated with suffering &#8212; and, though not always, caused by sin (perhaps their own or someone else&#8217;s, whether that&#8217;s overly high standards or other issues that get in the way).  Even though God might allow suffering to happen (especially as a natural consequence of the choices of a person or people), calling it a gift both minimizes the gravity of the sin and the pain of the sufferer.         </p>
<p>When you take a concordance and see what the Bible does and does not call a gift, then you get real sense of how the word should and should not be used.  And nowhere is it used to describe suffering a gift (with the exception of persecution for the sake of the church).  Likewise, the circumstance or &#8220;season&#8221; of singleness is never referred to as a gift.</p>
<p>Surely, we are to make the best of whatever our circumstances, rejoicing and glorifying God in them. But when people who are in situations that ordinarily cause suffering make a point of claiming that their circumstances (be it unintended singleness or disability) are a gift, their attempts to be a &#8220;good example&#8221; too often place burdens on others who don&#8217;t feel like they can be real about their suffering.  I think it&#8217;s good to be able to talk about the advantages of an adverse situation and be grateful for those things, and of course to seek God&#8217;s strength and trust that it will be given.  </p>
<p>But let&#8217;s not mischaracterize the word &#8220;gift&#8221;, because then it becomes meaningless.  If everything is a gift, then nothing is a gift.</p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6033</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Apr 2008 23:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6033</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Celibacy (or better, chastity) is a biblical command for those who are single whether it be by circumstance or by choice. Historically, celibacy on its own was never regarded as a gift, except for those who chose it for the sake of doing kingdom work (priesthood, religious orders). As for those who were simply “single by circumstance” no one ever referred to that as “the gift of singleness” until the late 20th century.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Chastity is completely different from chastity, in that one is permanent while the other is expecting eventual marriage. Celibacy almost HAS to be deliberate for it to be considered a "gift". I have never heard the term "gift of singleness" applied to long term unwilling singleness. Normally it is referenced as only a stage or only for those who don't WANT to marry. It is incorrect to claim someone who wants to marry has a permanent "gift of singleness", just as it is wrong to say someone who DOESN'T want to marry ought to do so.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I applaud Christian men who can step up to the plate and marry a woman with children and take responsibility of immediate fatherhood.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Absolutely. My point was that a mother looking for a relationship has a completely different perspective on things than someone without kids. Most single mothers looking for boyfriends don't make fatherhood a top priority in finding a spouse. One's children have to come first (after one's spouse). A single mother must put her children over her boyfriend. If the man won't make a good father to her children, a single mother has no business dating him.

&lt;b&gt;Stages vs Permanence&lt;/b&gt;
Paul is referencing a permanent singleness, which allows him to minister in ways that would be impossible were he married. He indicates that others with this "strength" to not need a spouse should also pursue his path, but that those who desire a wife should take one. This isn't that complicated unless one refuses to acknowledge that some people are happy to remain single. Remember, not everyone is just like you. I see no reason to pressure people who are HAPPY to be single into a marriage that might limit their ability to serve God in the way they are called.

There is a "stage" of singleness that everyone goes through, and I think it is ridiculous to wallow in misery while doing so. I understand that the vast majority don't WANT to remain single, but then they probably WON'T remain single. Given this, why be miserable? A single person should dedicate themselves to becoming the person God has called them to be, serving those around them and preparing themselves for their future. Devising tricks to get others to "like" them and "reeling in a catch" are pathetic things to be doing. At the same time, I agree that someone wishing to marry should be aware of potential matches, and seek assistance from trusted friends and family members in making connections. In no case should one expect a relationship based on lies and trickery (most modern dating relationships) to last for a lifetime.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Celibacy (or better, chastity) is a biblical command for those who are single whether it be by circumstance or by choice. Historically, celibacy on its own was never regarded as a gift, except for those who chose it for the sake of doing kingdom work (priesthood, religious orders). As for those who were simply “single by circumstance” no one ever referred to that as “the gift of singleness” until the late 20th century.</p></blockquote>
<p>Chastity is completely different from chastity, in that one is permanent while the other is expecting eventual marriage. Celibacy almost HAS to be deliberate for it to be considered a &#8220;gift&#8221;. I have never heard the term &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221; applied to long term unwilling singleness. Normally it is referenced as only a stage or only for those who don&#8217;t WANT to marry. It is incorrect to claim someone who wants to marry has a permanent &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221;, just as it is wrong to say someone who DOESN&#8217;T want to marry ought to do so.</p>
<blockquote><p>I applaud Christian men who can step up to the plate and marry a woman with children and take responsibility of immediate fatherhood.</p></blockquote>
<p>Absolutely. My point was that a mother looking for a relationship has a completely different perspective on things than someone without kids. Most single mothers looking for boyfriends don&#8217;t make fatherhood a top priority in finding a spouse. One&#8217;s children have to come first (after one&#8217;s spouse). A single mother must put her children over her boyfriend. If the man won&#8217;t make a good father to her children, a single mother has no business dating him.</p>
<p><b>Stages vs Permanence</b><br />
Paul is referencing a permanent singleness, which allows him to minister in ways that would be impossible were he married. He indicates that others with this &#8220;strength&#8221; to not need a spouse should also pursue his path, but that those who desire a wife should take one. This isn&#8217;t that complicated unless one refuses to acknowledge that some people are happy to remain single. Remember, not everyone is just like you. I see no reason to pressure people who are HAPPY to be single into a marriage that might limit their ability to serve God in the way they are called.</p>
<p>There is a &#8220;stage&#8221; of singleness that everyone goes through, and I think it is ridiculous to wallow in misery while doing so. I understand that the vast majority don&#8217;t WANT to remain single, but then they probably WON&#8217;T remain single. Given this, why be miserable? A single person should dedicate themselves to becoming the person God has called them to be, serving those around them and preparing themselves for their future. Devising tricks to get others to &#8220;like&#8221; them and &#8220;reeling in a catch&#8221; are pathetic things to be doing. At the same time, I agree that someone wishing to marry should be aware of potential matches, and seek assistance from trusted friends and family members in making connections. In no case should one expect a relationship based on lies and trickery (most modern dating relationships) to last for a lifetime.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6037</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 01:41:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6037</guid>
					<description>"Celibacy almost HAS to be deliberate for it to be considered a “gift”. I have never heard the term “gift of singleness” applied to long term unwilling singleness. Normally it is referenced as only a stage or only for those who don’t WANT to marry. It is incorrect to claim someone who wants to marry has a permanent “gift of singleness”, just as it is wrong to say someone who DOESN’T want to marry ought to do so."

I would agree with you, that celibacy pretty much has to be deliberate in order for it to be considered a gift.  I would also say that there has always been a distinction between chaste (temporary) singleness and deliberate celibacy.  Indeed, singleness and celibacy are not the same things.  

For this reason it is especially incorrect to tell someone who wants to marry that they have a "gift of singleness".  Although you've never heard of this, it is actually a widespread erroneous church teaching.  Elisabeth Elliot and Josh Harris use it this way in their chart topping bestsellers. 

The classic example is Al Hsu's 1998 &lt;i&gt;Singles at the Crossroads&lt;/i&gt;  which reads, "'The gift of singleness' is simply a description of an objective status. It is an exhortation to look at your marital status as a gift. If you are single, then you have the gift of singleness. If you are married, you don't...If you have one gift, you don't have the other. They're mutually exclusive...Eugene Peterson's paraphrase The Message reads: "Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me—a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others."

And The Message got this totally incorrect translation of 1 Cor 7:7 from The Living Bible (now the NLT)--  and it's STILL in both of them!

And so this is what you have: some single Christians worried that God has given them the GoS when they really don't want it, others worried that God might "call" them to singleness, and that you have to wait to be "called to marriage" (suggesting that God's going to communicate his will to you about who you should marriage -- when in fact the scriptures make no such promises), and so you must "wait on the Lord" for "word from the Lord", and those wanting to marry but are irritatingly admonished that they have the gift of singleness and they should be downright content with that.  And that since God finds your spouse, not you, any personal effort you might make might be inferring with "God's perfect plan for your life" -- another phrase that appears nowhere in the Bible. It's a critical confusion. 

"There is a “stage” of singleness that everyone goes through, and I think it is ridiculous to wallow in misery while doing so. I understand that the vast majority don’t WANT to remain single, but then they probably WON’T remain single."

Actually there are more Christians than ever who are struggling to find spouses, especially women.  There's a severe shortage of men in the church.  Young unmarried men are the most unchurched group in America.  So after "waiting on the Lord" for "God to write your love story", these individuals inevitably get anxious when they realize that the odds are getting worse, not better.  I believe that the GoS has proliferated in the Christian lexicon partly as a way to shut these women up.    

But it seems that anytime anyone speaks up to rethink the bad theology associated with the gift of singleness or the shortage of men in the church, there seems to be impulse to lecture them on contentment, as if to question things is to "make an idol out of marriage".  

And that's why I'm speaking out on these issues.  There has been too much bad teaching based on bad biblical interpretation.  Yes, it's important to find satifaction in God, but there is an epidemic of protracted singleness happening right now and we've got to find ways of talking about it and finding solutions, rather than shutting the discussion down with admonishments to be content.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Celibacy almost HAS to be deliberate for it to be considered a “gift”. I have never heard the term “gift of singleness” applied to long term unwilling singleness. Normally it is referenced as only a stage or only for those who don’t WANT to marry. It is incorrect to claim someone who wants to marry has a permanent “gift of singleness”, just as it is wrong to say someone who DOESN’T want to marry ought to do so.&#8221;</p>
<p>I would agree with you, that celibacy pretty much has to be deliberate in order for it to be considered a gift.  I would also say that there has always been a distinction between chaste (temporary) singleness and deliberate celibacy.  Indeed, singleness and celibacy are not the same things.  </p>
<p>For this reason it is especially incorrect to tell someone who wants to marry that they have a &#8220;gift of singleness&#8221;.  Although you&#8217;ve never heard of this, it is actually a widespread erroneous church teaching.  Elisabeth Elliot and Josh Harris use it this way in their chart topping bestsellers. </p>
<p>The classic example is Al Hsu&#8217;s 1998 <i>Singles at the Crossroads</i>  which reads, &#8220;&#8216;The gift of singleness&#8217; is simply a description of an objective status. It is an exhortation to look at your marital status as a gift. If you are single, then you have the gift of singleness. If you are married, you don&#8217;t&#8230;If you have one gift, you don&#8217;t have the other. They&#8217;re mutually exclusive&#8230;Eugene Peterson&#8217;s paraphrase The Message reads: &#8220;Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me—a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.&#8221;</p>
<p>And The Message got this totally incorrect translation of 1 Cor 7:7 from The Living Bible (now the NLT)&#8211;  and it&#8217;s STILL in both of them!</p>
<p>And so this is what you have: some single Christians worried that God has given them the GoS when they really don&#8217;t want it, others worried that God might &#8220;call&#8221; them to singleness, and that you have to wait to be &#8220;called to marriage&#8221; (suggesting that God&#8217;s going to communicate his will to you about who you should marriage &#8212; when in fact the scriptures make no such promises), and so you must &#8220;wait on the Lord&#8221; for &#8220;word from the Lord&#8221;, and those wanting to marry but are irritatingly admonished that they have the gift of singleness and they should be downright content with that.  And that since God finds your spouse, not you, any personal effort you might make might be inferring with &#8220;God&#8217;s perfect plan for your life&#8221; &#8212; another phrase that appears nowhere in the Bible. It&#8217;s a critical confusion. </p>
<p>&#8220;There is a “stage” of singleness that everyone goes through, and I think it is ridiculous to wallow in misery while doing so. I understand that the vast majority don’t WANT to remain single, but then they probably WON’T remain single.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually there are more Christians than ever who are struggling to find spouses, especially women.  There&#8217;s a severe shortage of men in the church.  Young unmarried men are the most unchurched group in America.  So after &#8220;waiting on the Lord&#8221; for &#8220;God to write your love story&#8221;, these individuals inevitably get anxious when they realize that the odds are getting worse, not better.  I believe that the GoS has proliferated in the Christian lexicon partly as a way to shut these women up.    </p>
<p>But it seems that anytime anyone speaks up to rethink the bad theology associated with the gift of singleness or the shortage of men in the church, there seems to be impulse to lecture them on contentment, as if to question things is to &#8220;make an idol out of marriage&#8221;.  </p>
<p>And that&#8217;s why I&#8217;m speaking out on these issues.  There has been too much bad teaching based on bad biblical interpretation.  Yes, it&#8217;s important to find satifaction in God, but there is an epidemic of protracted singleness happening right now and we&#8217;ve got to find ways of talking about it and finding solutions, rather than shutting the discussion down with admonishments to be content.</p>
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		<title>By: thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6042</link>
		<author>thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 03:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6042</guid>
					<description>"and we’ve got to find ways of talking about it and finding solutions,...

As for finding solutions, what do you think of Christian matchmaking services?

"Actually there are more Christians than ever who are struggling to find spouses, especially women. There’s a severe shortage of men in the church. Young unmarried men are the most unchurched group in America."

My gut feeling is that you are right; do you have facts to back up this claim?  And if it is indeed true, I wonder why?

If I just look at my own local church, I think it might be true.  I may be forgetting some I should count, but I think there are approximately twice as many single women as there are single men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;and we’ve got to find ways of talking about it and finding solutions,&#8230;</p>
<p>As for finding solutions, what do you think of Christian matchmaking services?</p>
<p>&#8220;Actually there are more Christians than ever who are struggling to find spouses, especially women. There’s a severe shortage of men in the church. Young unmarried men are the most unchurched group in America.&#8221;</p>
<p>My gut feeling is that you are right; do you have facts to back up this claim?  And if it is indeed true, I wonder why?</p>
<p>If I just look at my own local church, I think it might be true.  I may be forgetting some I should count, but I think there are approximately twice as many single women as there are single men.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6050</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 18:37:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6050</guid>
					<description>"As for finding solutions, what do you think of Christian matchmaking services?"  Sure!  Why not?  I would say that matchmaking is the second oldest profession!

As facts to back up the Christian man shortage, here are some points from Churchformen.com:

• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.

• On any given Sunday there are between 11 and 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches (also noted on Barna.org)

• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands. 

• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.

• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).

• As many as 90 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it by their 20th birthday. Many of these boys will never return. 


Camerin Courtney, singles columnist at Christianity Today wrote an article about it called, "O Brothers, Where Art Thou?"  http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2006/002/1.28.html

Other information is available at CT, including Christian college enrollment breakdowns by gender at their subsite ChristianCollegeGuide.net.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;As for finding solutions, what do you think of Christian matchmaking services?&#8221;  Sure!  Why not?  I would say that matchmaking is the second oldest profession!</p>
<p>As facts to back up the Christian man shortage, here are some points from Churchformen.com:</p>
<p>• The typical U.S. Congregation draws an adult crowd that’s 61% female, 39% male. This gender gap shows up in all age categories.</p>
<p>• On any given Sunday there are between 11 and 13 million more adult women than men in America’s churches (also noted on Barna.org)</p>
<p>• This Sunday almost 25 percent of married, churchgoing women will worship without their husbands. </p>
<p>• Midweek activities often draw 70 to 80 percent female participants.</p>
<p>• The majority of church employees are women (except for ordained clergy, who are overwhelmingly male).</p>
<p>• As many as 90 percent of the boys who are being raised in church will abandon it by their 20th birthday. Many of these boys will never return. </p>
<p>Camerin Courtney, singles columnist at Christianity Today wrote an article about it called, &#8220;O Brothers, Where Art Thou?&#8221;  <a href="http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2006/002/1.28.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.christianitytoday.com/tc/2006/002/1.28.html</a></p>
<p>Other information is available at CT, including Christian college enrollment breakdowns by gender at their subsite ChristianCollegeGuide.net.</p>
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		<title>By: Thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6052</link>
		<author>Thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 20:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6052</guid>
					<description>What are your thoughts as to why there are so few single men in church?  I mean, if a young woman wants to marry a Christian man, it seems like church is the place to start looking.  Are we to conclude there simply are more female Christians than male?

Also, in our ZFT forum we've had a couple reviews of books on this topic:

&lt;i&gt;The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity&lt;/i&gt;
http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=61108#61108

&lt;i&gt;Why Men Hate Going to Church&lt;/i&gt;
http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=59525#59525</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What are your thoughts as to why there are so few single men in church?  I mean, if a young woman wants to marry a Christian man, it seems like church is the place to start looking.  Are we to conclude there simply are more female Christians than male?</p>
<p>Also, in our ZFT forum we&#8217;ve had a couple reviews of books on this topic:</p>
<p><i>The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity</i><br />
<a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=61108#61108" rel="nofollow">http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=61108#61108</a></p>
<p><i>Why Men Hate Going to Church</i><br />
<a href="http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=59525#59525" rel="nofollow">http://forums.zealfortruth.org/viewtopic.php?p=59525#59525</a></p>
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		<title>By: Atanamis</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6053</link>
		<author>Atanamis</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Apr 2008 21:49:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6053</guid>
					<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Elisabeth Elliot and Josh Harris use it this way in their chart topping bestsellers.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Josh Harris is a quack, and I'm honestly surprised ANYONE takes him seriously. When Josh wrote "I kissed dating goodbye", he was little more than a pathetic guy who realized he'd gotten out of a bad relationship caused by stupid decisions. His book was the equivalent of a jilted girl claiming she'll never trust guys again. "Boy meets girl" spends most of its length saying the opposite of his statements in the first book, while at the same time claiming that he didn't really mean to say everything that he DID say. He met his wife by doing the very "Dating" he claimed to have kissed goodbye. I knew a lot of people in the "courtship" movement, and what he and his wife did doesn't fit. They dated.

&lt;blockquote&gt;“Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me—a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.”&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This isn't as bad a translation as you suggest (though I do agree it is a poor choice of words, yet another reason for me to dislike the Message). Celibacy and marriage are clearly mutually exclusive things for someone to have. Calling both "gifts" presumably is just intended to say that they are both good to have. Someone who isn't planning a life of celibacy though isn't experiencing a "gift" of celibacy, they just haven't married yet. Of course, the stronger the possibility that they will be unable to find an appropriate spouse, the more they need to be ready to live their life without marriage. This is entirely different than the satisfied celibacy that Paul describes though.

&lt;blockquote&gt;I believe that the GoS has proliferated in the Christian lexicon partly as a way to shut these women up.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
If this is in fact the case, I fully agree that this is a heretical and wrong headed usage. The refusal of the US church to reach out to and make demands on men is a major problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Elisabeth Elliot and Josh Harris use it this way in their chart topping bestsellers.</p></blockquote>
<p>Josh Harris is a quack, and I&#8217;m honestly surprised ANYONE takes him seriously. When Josh wrote &#8220;I kissed dating goodbye&#8221;, he was little more than a pathetic guy who realized he&#8217;d gotten out of a bad relationship caused by stupid decisions. His book was the equivalent of a jilted girl claiming she&#8217;ll never trust guys again. &#8220;Boy meets girl&#8221; spends most of its length saying the opposite of his statements in the first book, while at the same time claiming that he didn&#8217;t really mean to say everything that he DID say. He met his wife by doing the very &#8220;Dating&#8221; he claimed to have kissed goodbye. I knew a lot of people in the &#8220;courtship&#8221; movement, and what he and his wife did doesn&#8217;t fit. They dated.</p>
<blockquote><p>“Sometimes I wish everyone were single like me—a simpler life in many ways! But celibacy is not for everyone any more than marriage is. God gives the gift of the single life to some, the gift of the married life to others.”</p></blockquote>
<p>This isn&#8217;t as bad a translation as you suggest (though I do agree it is a poor choice of words, yet another reason for me to dislike the Message). Celibacy and marriage are clearly mutually exclusive things for someone to have. Calling both &#8220;gifts&#8221; presumably is just intended to say that they are both good to have. Someone who isn&#8217;t planning a life of celibacy though isn&#8217;t experiencing a &#8220;gift&#8221; of celibacy, they just haven&#8217;t married yet. Of course, the stronger the possibility that they will be unable to find an appropriate spouse, the more they need to be ready to live their life without marriage. This is entirely different than the satisfied celibacy that Paul describes though.</p>
<blockquote><p>I believe that the GoS has proliferated in the Christian lexicon partly as a way to shut these women up.</p></blockquote>
<p>If this is in fact the case, I fully agree that this is a heretical and wrong headed usage. The refusal of the US church to reach out to and make demands on men is a major problem.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6059</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 02:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6059</guid>
					<description>Thainamu asked: "What are your thoughts as to why there are so few single men in church? I mean, if a young woman wants to marry a Christian man, it seems like church is the place to start looking. Are we to conclude there simply are more female Christians than male?"  

I think both of those books you've recommended offer excellent insights into why there's a shortage of men in the church (btw- the author who wrote "Why Men Hate Going to Church" owns the website churchformen.com where I got most those stats in my last post).  Churches aren't the only victims of the man shortage.  Most organizations have a hard time attracting and keeping men.  Men just don't seem to be "joiners" in the same way that women are, especially when it comes to things that produce only indirect or long term results.  Men seem be more "instrumental" in how they spend their time.

Also, I think that young Christian men are drawn away from the church by the world more than their female peers.  For those young women who remain chaste, it's hard to compete with secular girls who are more sexually available.  Kind of like "why buy the cow when you can buy the milk for free".  So this is why I'm saying that we're got to stop calling all this singleness as gift: because it's got more to do with modern human trends -- with largely sinful causes -- that have eventual consequences that cause suffering.  It's not like the Lord suddenly said, "Okay, I need more single women out their to fulfill my mission, so I'll choose singleness as my life plan for her and her and her....

Antanamis:

You may think that Josh Harris is a quack, but his books sell millions.  In his first book, he said that one of the problems with dating is that it "can cause discontentment with the God's gift of singleness", basically suggesting that all singles have the GoS and that you have to achieve some kind of contentment nirvana before God grants you the gift of marriage (which is not true -- with the exception of the pathetically desperate the ones who get married are the ones who are the most motivated to do so). 


"This isn’t as bad a translation as you suggest (though I do agree it is a poor choice of words, yet another reason for me to dislike the Message). Celibacy and marriage are clearly mutually exclusive things for someone to have. Calling both “gifts” presumably is just intended to say that they are both good to have."  

But don't you see that it creates confusion to put these things together in contrast as gifts?  Perhaps even more so as the not-yet-married reader is left scratching their head about where they fit in to this picture, since they don't yet have the "gift of marriage" (and don't know if they'll ever get it) and they don't want (and perhaps fear) celibacy (which is NOT a good thing for want marriage, but are having a hard time getting there!).  Stick to the original text (which contrasts nothing), I say.   

People nowadays respond to the concerns of singles in a patronizing way, like "tut-tut, dear, one day it'll be your turn -- in God's time", without realizing that today's Christian singles (females especially) are facing an unprecedented obstacles to marriage. 

"Of course, the stronger the possibility that they will be unable to find an appropriate spouse, the more they need to be ready to live their life without marriage."  I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH THIS.  Marriage desiring singles should never admonished to give up hope.  Who's to say that an aging spinster or "confirmed bachelor" might not marry?  I agree with Candice Watter's encouraging message to live as if you're expecting to marry.  This doesn't mean that you're "putting your life on hold", on the contrary!  I think marriage desiring singles live far more active and productive lives, as they develop themselves, hoping to attract a mate than those who have given up and let themselves go, physically, socially, spiritually.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thainamu asked: &#8220;What are your thoughts as to why there are so few single men in church? I mean, if a young woman wants to marry a Christian man, it seems like church is the place to start looking. Are we to conclude there simply are more female Christians than male?&#8221;  </p>
<p>I think both of those books you&#8217;ve recommended offer excellent insights into why there&#8217;s a shortage of men in the church (btw- the author who wrote &#8220;Why Men Hate Going to Church&#8221; owns the website churchformen.com where I got most those stats in my last post).  Churches aren&#8217;t the only victims of the man shortage.  Most organizations have a hard time attracting and keeping men.  Men just don&#8217;t seem to be &#8220;joiners&#8221; in the same way that women are, especially when it comes to things that produce only indirect or long term results.  Men seem be more &#8220;instrumental&#8221; in how they spend their time.</p>
<p>Also, I think that young Christian men are drawn away from the church by the world more than their female peers.  For those young women who remain chaste, it&#8217;s hard to compete with secular girls who are more sexually available.  Kind of like &#8220;why buy the cow when you can buy the milk for free&#8221;.  So this is why I&#8217;m saying that we&#8217;re got to stop calling all this singleness as gift: because it&#8217;s got more to do with modern human trends &#8212; with largely sinful causes &#8212; that have eventual consequences that cause suffering.  It&#8217;s not like the Lord suddenly said, &#8220;Okay, I need more single women out their to fulfill my mission, so I&#8217;ll choose singleness as my life plan for her and her and her&#8230;.</p>
<p>Antanamis:</p>
<p>You may think that Josh Harris is a quack, but his books sell millions.  In his first book, he said that one of the problems with dating is that it &#8220;can cause discontentment with the God&#8217;s gift of singleness&#8221;, basically suggesting that all singles have the GoS and that you have to achieve some kind of contentment nirvana before God grants you the gift of marriage (which is not true &#8212; with the exception of the pathetically desperate the ones who get married are the ones who are the most motivated to do so). </p>
<p>&#8220;This isn’t as bad a translation as you suggest (though I do agree it is a poor choice of words, yet another reason for me to dislike the Message). Celibacy and marriage are clearly mutually exclusive things for someone to have. Calling both “gifts” presumably is just intended to say that they are both good to have.&#8221;  </p>
<p>But don&#8217;t you see that it creates confusion to put these things together in contrast as gifts?  Perhaps even more so as the not-yet-married reader is left scratching their head about where they fit in to this picture, since they don&#8217;t yet have the &#8220;gift of marriage&#8221; (and don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;ll ever get it) and they don&#8217;t want (and perhaps fear) celibacy (which is NOT a good thing for want marriage, but are having a hard time getting there!).  Stick to the original text (which contrasts nothing), I say.   </p>
<p>People nowadays respond to the concerns of singles in a patronizing way, like &#8220;tut-tut, dear, one day it&#8217;ll be your turn &#8212; in God&#8217;s time&#8221;, without realizing that today&#8217;s Christian singles (females especially) are facing an unprecedented obstacles to marriage. </p>
<p>&#8220;Of course, the stronger the possibility that they will be unable to find an appropriate spouse, the more they need to be ready to live their life without marriage.&#8221;  I COMPLETELY DISAGREE WITH THIS.  Marriage desiring singles should never admonished to give up hope.  Who&#8217;s to say that an aging spinster or &#8220;confirmed bachelor&#8221; might not marry?  I agree with Candice Watter&#8217;s encouraging message to live as if you&#8217;re expecting to marry.  This doesn&#8217;t mean that you&#8217;re &#8220;putting your life on hold&#8221;, on the contrary!  I think marriage desiring singles live far more active and productive lives, as they develop themselves, hoping to attract a mate than those who have given up and let themselves go, physically, socially, spiritually.</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6062</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 05:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6062</guid>
					<description>gortexgrrl said: "&lt;i&gt;btw- the author who wrote “Why Men Hate Going to Church” owns the website churchformen.com where I got most those stats in my last post&lt;/i&gt;"

I thought that website sounded familiar. I like Murrow's book. It actually offered an explanation of how the church is driving men away. I don't think there's anything inherent in men that makes us less likely to follow God. The fact that men aren't showing up in church as much as women are means that something is wrong with church, not with men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gortexgrrl said: &#8220;<i>btw- the author who wrote “Why Men Hate Going to Church” owns the website churchformen.com where I got most those stats in my last post</i>&#8221;</p>
<p>I thought that website sounded familiar. I like Murrow&#8217;s book. It actually offered an explanation of how the church is driving men away. I don&#8217;t think there&#8217;s anything inherent in men that makes us less likely to follow God. The fact that men aren&#8217;t showing up in church as much as women are means that something is wrong with church, not with men.</p>
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		<title>By: thainamu</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6071</link>
		<author>thainamu</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 13:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6071</guid>
					<description>So maybe single women should stop going to church too and instead try to find where those men are hiding on Sundays and join them.  Oh, wait.  That would be in bed, wouldn't it? 

I agree that there are things in church that men don't like.  (And there's things women don't like too, for that matter.)  But if these single men &lt;i&gt;really are believers&lt;/i&gt;, then they should be in church, shouldn't they?  In fact, they should be there trying to make church better instead of whining about it (or more likely sitting passively and grumbling silently).  

I'm perhaps not as inclined as you might be to let these missing Christian men off the hook.  Like Atanamis said: "The refusal of the US church to reach out to and make demands on men is a major problem."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So maybe single women should stop going to church too and instead try to find where those men are hiding on Sundays and join them.  Oh, wait.  That would be in bed, wouldn&#8217;t it? </p>
<p>I agree that there are things in church that men don&#8217;t like.  (And there&#8217;s things women don&#8217;t like too, for that matter.)  But if these single men <i>really are believers</i>, then they should be in church, shouldn&#8217;t they?  In fact, they should be there trying to make church better instead of whining about it (or more likely sitting passively and grumbling silently).  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m perhaps not as inclined as you might be to let these missing Christian men off the hook.  Like Atanamis said: &#8220;The refusal of the US church to reach out to and make demands on men is a major problem.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jasen Tracy</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6083</link>
		<author>Jasen Tracy</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 18:12:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6083</guid>
					<description>gortexgrrl wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Also, I think that young Christian men are drawn away from the church by the world more than their female peers. For those young women who remain chaste, it’s hard to compete with secular girls who are more sexually available.&lt;/blockquote&gt;



Let's think this through.  For every heterosexual guy sleeping around there is a woman he is sleeping around with.  If there's more men then women who don't go to church (which is likely the case although it's greatly exaggerated by people like Marrow) then the only way that could work is if women are having sex more than men on average, which seems unlikely.  It's much more reasonable to assume that these single church women are in fact having sex.

And wanting to sleep around may not be that much of a factor in people not attending church.  People are perfectly capable of having pre-marital sex and faithfully going to church.  Let's not act like all single church people aren't having sex or that single men have to leave church before they can have sex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>gortexgrrl wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Also, I think that young Christian men are drawn away from the church by the world more than their female peers. For those young women who remain chaste, it’s hard to compete with secular girls who are more sexually available.</p></blockquote>
<p>Let&#8217;s think this through.  For every heterosexual guy sleeping around there is a woman he is sleeping around with.  If there&#8217;s more men then women who don&#8217;t go to church (which is likely the case although it&#8217;s greatly exaggerated by people like Marrow) then the only way that could work is if women are having sex more than men on average, which seems unlikely.  It&#8217;s much more reasonable to assume that these single church women are in fact having sex.</p>
<p>And wanting to sleep around may not be that much of a factor in people not attending church.  People are perfectly capable of having pre-marital sex and faithfully going to church.  Let&#8217;s not act like all single church people aren&#8217;t having sex or that single men have to leave church before they can have sex.</p>
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		<title>By: gortexgrrl</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6101</link>
		<author>gortexgrrl</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2008/03/ladies-always-a-bridesmaid-never-a-bride/#comment-6101</guid>
					<description>I didn't say that there are more men than women that don't go to church.  I said that there are more women attending church than men.  This may sound like a fussy detail, but it makes a difference when it comes to comparing large populations -- those men who "opt out" just blend in with the larger numbers in the secular world.  You are right that there are certainly single women and men who "are perfectly capable of having pre-marital sex and faithful going to church".  All I'm saying is that for young, church attending singles who expect to wait until marriage before having sex, the women are in surplus.  I doubt you'll find much argument with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t say that there are more men than women that don&#8217;t go to church.  I said that there are more women attending church than men.  This may sound like a fussy detail, but it makes a difference when it comes to comparing large populations &#8212; those men who &#8220;opt out&#8221; just blend in with the larger numbers in the secular world.  You are right that there are certainly single women and men who &#8220;are perfectly capable of having pre-marital sex and faithful going to church&#8221;.  All I&#8217;m saying is that for young, church attending singles who expect to wait until marriage before having sex, the women are in surplus.  I doubt you&#8217;ll find much argument with that.</p>
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