My point is that government should not be concerned about conversion at all. This is the job of the church. Conversion and promoting civic values in society are two opposite things (at least I think they should be).

I am going to (someday) write up why drug and prostitution laws do not keep an “orderly and well-behaved” populace. Which I think will get to what you are asking.

But this article is to show why, from a purely biblical perspective, Christians have no obligation to support these laws (and may be in danger of sin, depending on their motives).

Given that I do not have the option of living in a theocracy, I will still vote every time for “morality” laws. Why? Because it will bring anyone to Christ? No, not at all. Because it will make this a “Christian nation”? No, not at all. Because God told me to? Nope.

I vote against pornography, abortion, allowing recreational drug use, prostitution, etc. for a very simple reason: I would rather live in a society without these things. I’m simply using my free will to vote for what I want society to be like. I’m voting my ideals, if you will.

Will laws against porn, abortion, drugs, prostitution, etc. stop those events from occurring? No, not at all. (In some cases it might slow them down, but I know making something illegal will not stop it.) I can only hope that those laws will be enforced to the point of protecting me and the ones I look out for.

The laws of our land have little to do with pointing out sin. The sin in our hearts is much more hard core than the breaking of any man-made law. Sin against God predates the 10 commandments; it is rebellion against God, putting ourselves above God, or how ever else you want to phrase our basic selfishness.

And maybe at this point I don’t entirely agree with the Way of the Master’s emphasis on breaking the law as the indicator that we are sinners, because we were all sinners in need of repentance prior to even knowing the law. Yes, we do all break the law, but our sin is even deeper than that. But that’s a different topic.)

I’m simply using my free will to vote for what I want society to be like. I’m voting my ideals, if you will.

Will laws against porn, abortion, drugs, prostitution, etc. stop those events from occurring? No, not at all. (In some cases it might slow them down, but I know making something illegal will not stop it.) I can only hope that those laws will be enforced to the point of protecting me and the ones I look out for.

I wish your candor were shared by many who take your position, but try to surround it in a whole list of rationalizations and proposed biblical logic. This is, I think, the common belief among people who advocate these laws - especially Christians. They can’t prove it rationally or biblically, but unlike you, they won’t admit it - likely because of pride (but that is just an assumption on my part).

However, you must admit that it is difficult for anyone to put together that you vote the way you “want society to be like” but admit that these laws won’t make society that way. This fails to address that only conversion can have meaningful change on society towards morality - which I think you’ll agree with. In other words - there is a disconnect between what you know, and the way you act.

I can only hope that those laws will be enforced to the point of protecting me and the ones I look out for.

But whose job is it to “protect” you from these things, and who needs to bear the cost? The bible seems to clearly indicate that it is the individual, the family and then the church who is responsible for this. We are not cautioned to change these things through law, but to resist them, not speak of them, flee them, guard ourselves, etc… We are the agent of change, because we are actually changed. The responsibility is on us as Christians - as ones who have gone from darkness to light. The world is still in darkness, they cannot comprehend the light (John 1:5), let alone conform to it.

Plus, on one hand, if we submit to the government as we should, then we do what they say without question - as long as we are not asked to disobey God. However, since we are a democratic republic, we are afforded a say in how government is run. And I think the basis for all governmental authority in the U.S. is found in the Constitution. I just don’t think the Constitution allows the kinds of governmental intrusion that we face today.

For me, the biblical arguments Colin is making do strike a chord with me personally. But I am not convinced to what extent we can use scripture to formulate our ideas about an ideal government that isn’t theocratic. I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong. I simply do not know.

I suppose in one sense it “fails to address” that only conversion can have a meaningful change on society, but I don’t intend my voting to address the spiritual issue of conversion–holding out the word of truth that leads to conversion is the only thing I can do to hope for a real change inside of anyone. However, if I looked at the topic from the negative point of view (often a useful way to examine an issue) I ask myself, “What good would it do if I voted to allow drugs, porn, blah, blah. That, in my unverifiable opinion, would only make the place I live further away from how I want it to be. I also think it would more easily trip up young idiots who have the untenable idea that “if it is legal, it must be OK.”

As far as the protection issue, I’m thinking of it in a physical sense, not a spiritual or emotional one. I envision scenarios where my grandchildren (should I ever be so fortunate to have any) go barefoot out in the street to play and step on a dirty needle covered with heroin and HIV. If drug use were legal, I’d not be surprised if that sort of thing would be more common than it is now, for instance.

That is a different issue, and one I hope to bring up. I look forward to making the case (another time) exactly why these laws actually make these problems worse, and have even more drastic and unsafe indirect consequences.

P1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyystXOfDqo
P2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37-zCyI6rmk
P3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZNeZUROVM0

Yeah, that’s sort of where I’m coming from on the other end of the spectrum.

Marriage at age 12 was usually based on a family deal about money, not love. Sometimes bride/groom didn’t even meet till their wedding day.

Temple prostitution was wrong because of the idolatry of worshiping the fertility gods in the public temples. It was not because of sex.

More extensive info and quotes where common prostitution not an issue at

http://www.sexwork.com/coalition/christian.html

Dave in Phoenix
Liberated Christians
www.libchrist.com

However, I would be interested in a good biblical discussion about polygamy, and about concubines in particular. It’s pretty clear from Scripture that God designed marriage to be between one man and one woman. Were the Old Testament patriarchs sinning by taking multiple wives? Or is polygamy truly permissible in God’s eyes?