Despite the emphasis in nearly every major media outlet’s coverage of yesterdays shooting in a Nebraska mall, the shooter did not use an “assault” weapon by any stretch of the imagination. But this doesn’t stop the media from using the term:
A 19-year-old man killed eight people and then himself with an assault rifle at a busy mall in Omaha on Wednesday, sending terrified workers and Christmas shoppers scrambling for cover.
But the weapon used was not an assault rifle, it was about the cheapest, impractical* rifle money can buy - a Russian SKS. It would take five minutes of google-work to determine that the SKS is semi-automatic, with 10-round magazines and is well known to be used by rednecks for shooting beer cans long before it would ever be used by a mass murderer.
In a 2001 letter to the editor, Ed Hoyer Jr. wrote an excellent and short analysis of the term being applied to the gun in the Chicago Tribune:
The SKS is a semiautomatic rifle. It is not an assault rifle.
Real assault rifles have a selector switch that controls how many bullets will be fired with one pull of the trigger. The usual pattern is up to four selections: safe or no bullets, one bullet at a time, a burst of three bullets or fully automatic fire like a machine gun. That selector switch is what makes a real assault rifle different from a semiautomatic rifle.
The SKS has never had this selector switch. It has always been a semiautomatic rifle–one bullet for each pull of the trigger. That’s the way the Russians designed it and the way it has been built all over the world. It is a simple, easy-to-operate, semiautomatic rifle. It’s popular in the U.S. because it is simple to operate, inexpensive, easy to maintain and can be used for both target shooting and hunting some game.
But the media isn’t entirely to blame for messing this one up. The originator of this inaccuracy, not the last, I’m sure, in a long line of mainstream myths, ignorance and political exaduration of gun threats, is actually the local police department.
It was local Omaha police chief Thomas Warren who first declared to the media that we are talking about an “assault rifle.” One would think that a police officer (police chief, no less), supposedly well trained in firearm use and identification, would be able to tell the difference between something like a full-auto AK-47 with a 30 round banana magazine, and a glorified bottle shooter like an SKS.
The distinction is important - if not only for accuracy in government and media. But accuracy is even more important, because guns, weapons and public use of these things are paramount issues in the United States. In order to make accurate determinations of what kind of weapons are dangerous, we need to know the facts in the first place. If we don’t, we can soon expect “outrageous exposes” on how regular people, without background checks or special approval, can just walk in a gun shop and buy an “assault rifle.”
*author changed “worthless” to “impractical” to emphasize that, while the SKS is a useful weapon, it is not the most pragmatic choice for close-quarter killing
FYI: A commenter on my site said the picture on the TV showed an SKS with a removable mag.
How does one kill one’s self with a rifle anyway? Did the guy have extraordinarily long arms? Use his toes? (This is a serious question, BTW.)
Even though I don’t share your view on guns, I get your point about the media–they often don’t pay attention to the details, whether it is guns or anything else. They cause a lot of misunderstandings that get perpetuated, some of which are very unfortunate.
The media outlets are probably mistakenly conflating the political term “assault weapon” with the term “assault rifle”. The two terms are different, and one cannot be substituted for the other.
An assault rifle is just what Colin described. An assault weapon is a political term (chosen to sound dangerous in order to justify banning them in America) that can refer to a semiautomatic firearm such as the SKS.
Actually, the SKS may not even qualify under the legal definition of an assault weapon. I’m finding conflicting information about whether the federal ban on assault weapons covered the SKS.
While I agree with your sentiment and have been disgusted with the media’s portrayal of “Assault Weapons” for years now, I have to say that you are technically incorrect. The term “Assault Weapon” (at least as defined by law) applies to any semi-automatic weapon with two or more of the following “Assault” features:
1) Bayonet
2) Grenade launcher (it’s only the shape of the end of the barrel which allows blanks to launch a GL attachment)
3) Folding stock
4) Magazine with greater than 10 round capacity
Many SKS rifles owned in America have folding stocks and/or hi-capacity magazines. Almost all come stock with the bayonet and the Yugoslavian ones also come with the grenade launcher (the shape of the barrel, not the grenades themselves). I would know since I own a Yugo (they also come with tritium night sights). Now, none of these features make these rifles any more dangerous than most other hunting rifles, especially since the 7.62×39 round which it fires is a very low power round. However, they do classify it as an “Assault Weapon”. This term is of course essentially meaningless. What really gets me is when the media use the term “Machine Gun” to describe these rifles (which has happened many times).
In response to your comment that it is a worthless rifle, I can only say that I love mine for the following reasons:
1) It’s accuracy is quite good for the price ($200.00 brand new).
2) Mine never jams.
3) It’s very easy to maintain.
4) It shoots the cheapest most readily available ammo in the world.
-Ike
Ike, that’s great information. It sounds like the SKS definitely qualifies as an assault weapon as defined by law. The news reports labeling it an assault rifle are still inaccurate, but that’s probably due to reporter ignorance rather than any malice or hidden agenda.
As a LEO firearms instructor and avid pro-gun guy, I agree that the term “Assault Weapon” is a fear driven Political term.
I also agree that a SKS is not an “Assault Rifle”, because it is not select fire and does not meet the definition as defined within the military lexicon.
I do not dismiss the tradgedy of the Omaha murders and mourn for the families of the dead and injured. I hate to think what they are going through now that lives have been so senselessly extinguished. Add the holidays to this situation and I feel so bad for them. My prayers for peace within the hearts of the families.
I have owned several SKS rifles and scores of semiautomatic AK type guns in my time. I would hardly call a SKS worthless. The price of a SKS may be cheap, but as it relates to value I don’t thing the gun is a cheap piece of garbage. I would also not relegate the SKS to a “redneck bottle buster” either. The M43 cartridge is an intermediate cartridge, but is well capable of fulfilling the mission for which it was designed.
I would have no problem trusting my life to a SKS if it came down to it. The SKS is an accurate reliable rifle. I personally like it in its original configuration.
To place the situation in perspective. A gun is a tool. One can just as easily run down a crowded bus stop with a car and kill people. Determined people willing to kill their fellow man will achieve their goal, guns or not. Murder occurs in prison with implements made from everyday items. There is simply no way to stop it. Even in a highly controlled enviornment. it may sound cold, but it is the cost of living in a free society. The capability to be able to defend ones self personally is very important. This is not to say that an armed person should actively pursue the shooter, but to get safe, hunker down, and defend YOURSELF should you be personally threatened. I am all in favor of CCW. It cuts down on the “Sitting Duck” factor. papa
Take two rifles that fire the same round…one is all pink and fuzzy and cute…the other has the cosmetic features listed above. When a bullet leaves each firearm’s barrel…since they are THE SAME ROUND…the two bullets weight, shape, and velocity, are all the exact same values…in other words each bullet does not know or care which firearm it was fired from…the terminal results will be the same. An assault weapon is selective fire(fully automatic using the aforementioned selctor switch) fires a short mid power rifle round…and can be fuzzy pink and cute with none of the features on the above list…or ugly black and with all the features on the above list…and the round leaving the barrel will not perform any differently either way.
1) Bayonet
2) Grenade launcher (it’s only the shape of the end of the barrel which allows blanks to launch a GL attachment)
3) Folding stock
4) Magazine with greater than 10 round capacity
Ike, as you know not all SKS rifles have even two of these features, some have been modified to have none. We will have to get the details of the particular gun used, however, I’m glad we agree that an SKS is not an assault rifle.
For example, the SKS pictured in this article is not an assault rifle as it has only a ten round magazine and a bayonet.
In response to your comment that it is a worthless rifle, I can only say that I love mine for the following reasons:
1) It’s accuracy is quite good for the price ($200.00 brand new).
2) Mine never jams.
3) It’s very easy to maintain.
4) It shoots the cheapest most readily available ammo in the world.
The term “worthless” is hyperbolic on my part, as I think they are great weapons for shooting stuff, but if I were to empty my savings on a weapon to kill a mall full of people - it would not be an SKS. In other words, I would say an SKS, relative to a real assault rifle or even a good handgun for the purposes of killing lots of people in close quarters, is worthless.
Ike makes good points. Magazine capacity is key in the definition of an assault rifle. The SKS has 30rd magazines available to replace the 10rd stripper-clip configuration (simple conversion). In my own mind, any military anti-personnel rifle can be termed ‘assault’. The SKS was the soviets main rifle prior to the AK47, so called because it was invented in 1947. The SKS the main weapon of the Viet Cong foot solider.
The 7.62×39 round and the assault rifle configuration itself was invented by the Nazi’s 1943-45 era.
Should assault rifles be banned? No.
This SOB could of killed the same number of people using a Marlin 30/30 lever action and a pocket full of ammo.
Personally I find it hard to believe that a 19 year old who
had to steal $17 from a burger joint owned a Russian SKS.
I’ll bet it was a Chinese Norinco SKS. Coverup? Perhaps.
This SOB could of killed the same number of people using a Marlin 30/30
This is really my point. I mean, look at what the VT killer did with a couple handguns (one of them a .22). If this guy would have brought those, he would have likely done significantly more damage.
gun papa you hit it right on the head you know your stuff! SKS is not a true assault rifle just a media word to scare people! As a lawful gun owner i feel bad for those people but like gun papa said its the price we pay to live with freedom!some people never know freedom remember what hitler said when he disarmed the german people (What do you need guns for you have me)If people remember years ago when on almost a daily basis terrorist bombers would blow themselfs up in Israel daily killing scores!And as gun papa said if people are intent on killing they will use what ever is at their disposal! Remember we must NEVER forget 9/11 no gun of any type was used however nearly 3,000 people died! CCW works!
The SKS was never affected by the Federal AWB of 1994. Since it lacks a detachable magazine, it could never fall under its provisions.
The SKS is classified as a “Curio & Relic” by the BATFE and as such operates under different import procedures than an AK-47 pattern rifle.
Detachable magazine SKS rifles (the SKS-D modified to accept AK magazines) were subject to the Federal ban if they possessed the requisite number of features.
The 7.62×39mm ammunition was not invented by the Nazis. It was made by the Russians during WW2 as an intermediate power round based on their exposure to the 7.92×33mm Kurz ammunition in use by the Germans in the StG44 rifle, the gun that coined the term “assault rifle”. The SKS used this new round during the late part of the war and a small number of SKS rifles did see action in Russian hands. The later AK-47 simply used the same round and supplanted the SKS in Russian front line service after only 2 years.
By the way, the Federal Ban banned NOTHING. It only forbade the manufacture of rifles with specific cosmetic features. AK, AR and many other pattern rifles including the SKS were sold and made throughout the 10 year “ban” period. In accordance with the law as written.
It doesn’t matter what this person used. The gun didn’t commit the crime; he did. The type of gun doesn’t matter. The fact that he was a monster and preyed on innocent people does. He was a coward and a murderer of the worst sort. My sympathies go out to the families who have suffered as a result of this evil.
Matt, thanks for the very useful information!
The Clinton idiots actually designated the description of the assault weapon as being
* Large capacity ammunition magazines
* Folding or telescoping stock
* Conspicuous pistol grip
* Bayonet mount
* Flash suppressor, or threaded barrel designed to accommodate one.
* Grenade launcher
The SKS has a factory floor plate 10 round fixed magazine and a standard wooden “hunting rifle style stock” No grip or high cap. standard. The SKS can be configured with some smithing to accept high cap but most people, including me just load it with stripper clips from the top. I don’t know if this kids “STOLEN” weapon was so outfitted. The “ASSAULT WEAPON” comment is only being used as a ploy for the Left wing media gun control agenda. There was even one moron reporter who said, ” Sir, Do you know if the magazines where taped together”, to the police spokesman. They did not even say if the SKS was altered to accept high cap mags, leftest media Ploy again. If myself or any of the other tens of thousands of CCW permit holders where there, this little bastards rampage and life would have been promptly ended, and those good people would be with their family’s this Christmas. Remember this, the graveyards are full of people who did not believe in carrying a gun. Sad but true, good people must arm themselves in todays society. The Democrat liberal leftist Utopian fantasy is costing good lives. I will not be victimized, will you??
Quick thought, I think we are all saying the same thing here, I think ‘GUN PAPA’ lays it out nicely. “This SOB could of killed the same number of people using a Marlin 30/30″. I like this comment as well, I grew up with the 30/30 for hunting and my dad could work that rifle so fast you would think it was a semi. The hospital spokesman said today that, “we often see this kind of damage with an assault rifle”, What in the world does that mean??? Is he saying that a round from my single shot 223 handi rifle will do less damage than a shot from my Bushmaster just because the stock looks scary, they are obscuring the facts to further political ideals. Does anyone know what configuration the SKS was in ? i.e. Factory, Modified, High cap, stock upgrade, or are they hiding the truth to further their motives. It would screw them up royally if they found out it was just a cheap 10 round beer bottle plinker that did all the damage which I am willing to bet it was.
It doesn’t matter. The media has now dealt with their inconsistency by mislabeling the rifle altogether to make it seem scarier. Now, according to all AP outlets, CNN, etc, it was “an AK-47 with SKS 7.66 mm ammunition”, despite the fact that it was, in fact, an SKS. An AK is apparently scarier, thus NewSpeak has deemed it so.
Colin, great article. The same thing happened when the Virginia Tech student killed all those people last year; some members of the media said he had an automatic handgun, which he did not. On the McLaughlin Group at the time, Lawrence O’Donnell claimed it was an automatic handgun and the shooter was able to just go pop, pop, pop. Pat Buchanan and Tony Blankley tried to correct him. It was really disgusting, O’Donnell was trying to make a political point for gun control so he obviously lied about the type of gun.
I have confirmed what the MSM is reporting, the nooz is right:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/12/06/mall.shooting/index.html
This is inaccuracy to the greatest degree! These people should be fired!
From CNN Police believe Hawkins stole the AK-47 from his stepfather’s home, Warren said. They are trying to trace the weapon and determine whether the stepfather owned it legally, he added.
They will instead get promoted.
Fox News is now completely mixed up. The lead of the article still says it was an AK-47, although later in the article, it reads:
“She told the Omaha World-Herald that the night before the shooting, Hawkins and her sons showed her an SKS semiautomatic Russian military rifle — the same type used in the shooting. She said she thought the gun belonged to a member of Hawkins’ family. She said she didn’t think much of it — the gun looked too old to work.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,315441,00.html
Too late, “AK-47″ is now in the minds of the gun-fearing public.
BTW, the Violence Policy Center has already started its blood-soaked gleeful dancing. They just released a press release about “SKS, a menace to public safety”.
http://www.commondreams.org/news2007/1206-06.htm
Just an AK-47? Are you sure he didn’t use a Gatling gun? I’m pretty sure he did, the same kind used by deer hunters everywhere.
Darius, I think you’re wrong! Didn’t he use an over-the-shoulder missle launcher with laser sights and a few grenades? Oh, and mortars. Lots of mortars. I’m sure he had land mines as well. Lord knows what those sill gun-nuts use to hunt nowadays. *lol*
Here is my question: If the gun was stolen by the kid, why do they need to know if the man he stole it from had obtained it “legally”? What does that mean? As far as I know, I can privately sell most of my guns without a federal firearms license. Not to mention, what would that prove? That the kid obtained a gun illegally that was previously bought illegally? I guess, if nothing else, it would show that gun restrictions on legal purchases…well, you know, don’t do squat.
Darius,, I heard it was a shoulder fired missile. LOL it get s better all the time.
From the article posted by “The Nooz”:
“The ATF report also notes that “these high capacity rifles pose an enhanced threat to law enforcement, in part because of their ability to expel projectiles at velocities that are capable of penetrating the type of soft body armor typically worn by the law enforcement officers.”
Gee, there is the “no duh” statement of the year. It’s a rifle, soft armor is usually made to protect against the relatively slower moving hangun ammunition. See, this is when just a little information becomes dangerous. You know, when a simple SKS becomes an “assault rifle” and the 7.62×39 becomes some “dangerous threat”. I guess I better be careful of my Mosin-Nagant 7.62×54R because it is even more powerful! I mean, it probably can shoot through at LEAST 10 beer cans, not to mention…uhh…TANKS! YEAH, TANKS! And to all you Elk hunters? Better hide your 30/06, cause you are now a potential TERRORIST! Why do you need that much power? *rolls eyes*
Here, let me finish that article. I own golf clubs…want to put on a helmet and let all 210 pounds of me swing at your head with a 7 iron? I’ll bet I still put you into the ICU.
Sorry Ornot, I just stole your idea. I should have read the new posts first.
LOL Patriot, no problem! Great minds think alike!
Can anyone here second the motion of putting armed security and/or police sub stations in these malls and colleges? I could not possibility foresee a better time to push for the idea.
I would rather have more people who practice able to CCW, rather than give Tubby the Nearsighted Rent-A-Cop, the guy who couldn’t get into the police academy, an MP5 and hope he has good judgment…and good aim.
I’m all for allowing conceal carry into malls and universities. A ban of conceal carry only hurts the law-abiding. Like some sign is going to keep people from going on a rampage. “Oops, this library bans weapons?!? Dang it, I was hoping to do a lil’ mass murderin’ before I offed myself. Hmm, where can I go?”
I think CCW is the single best construct for reducing violence in public.
On a somewhat unrelated note… why are these Eastern Block retired military rifles being imported to the U.S.? What about the ak parts kits… any moron can build one via the 80% blank route. At least when you buy the Mini-14 you are giving your money to an american company (ruger) that can be sued.
“why are these Eastern Block retired military rifles being imported to the U.S.? What about the ak parts kits… any moron can build one via the 80% blank route. At least when you buy the Mini-14 you are giving your money to an american company (ruger) that can be sued.”
I’m not sure I understand exactly what reason you see for suing the arms manufacturer. As for why the Eastern Bloc weapons are popular, see my earlier post for my reasons. The mini-30 (US version of 7.62×39) can’t even shoot eastern bloc ammo such as Wolf because of the harder primers they use. This means that I would have to pay $13 for a box of 20 rounds instead of the $4/box it costs for Wolf.
-Ike
You are right, the media is using the assault rifle and AK-47 designation to mislead and scare people. That’s what they do well - scare people. Just like our current President making people think that Islamic terrorists are hiding behind every corner when this is simply not fact. The only people that seem to be hiding and laying in wait in America are misguided kids with death on their minds.
The only important fact is that SKS, AK, AR, Uzi, whatever, these guns were all designed to kill people, not deer, beer bottles, or be to collector pieces. Sadly, it was used appropriately in this case in the mall by a sick young man. I’d rather live in a world where no one can get these types of guns outside a well-controlled militia or army.
My sympathies to the dead and their families…
“The only important fact is that SKS, AK, AR, Uzi, whatever, these guns were all designed to kill people, not deer, beer bottles, or be to collector pieces. Sadly, it was used appropriately in this case in the mall by a sick young man. I’d rather live in a world where no one can get these types of guns outside a well-controlled militia or army.”
This statement necessarily implies one of two things. Either you believe that intentions in design are more important than actual functional differences in design, or that no civilian should be allowed access to any weapons, military in design or other, which are functionally as powerful as an SKS.
In response to the first possibility, my SKS was “designed to kill people” and my Remington 742 semi-automatic 30-06 was designed for hunting. The latter is much more powerful and accurate. Both weapons fire one bullet for each trigger pull, but a 30-06 is effective at a much farther range and is potentially more destructive due to its much greater power. Clearly in this case the “design to kill people” in my SKS is irrelevant.
As for the second, to believe access to powerful weapons should be restricted to law abiding citizens regardless of intentions in design is obviously an age old debate. I’m sure that this is not the place for a drawn out debate, but would like to make a couple of points. First that this belief assumes a notion of guilty unless proven innocent (the assumption that people must be controlled without giving specific cause to believe they are a threat). Second this belief ignores the responsibility of citizens to control and maintain its own government. Governments have shown historically that they are inclined toward abuse and violence unless deterred by force or the threat of force. No government in history has proven exempt from this for any sustained duration.
-Ike
I also do not desire to get into a long winded debate on gun control or the intentions behind a vaguely written amendment - written when single shot, muzzle-loaded weapons were the state-of-the-art weapon du jour. I am quite unlikely to have any influence over how others feel about this issue, but let me be clear on my position that has been expanded upon by Ike.
Intentions in design are all important. Commercial production and sale of weapons that can be rapidly reloaded and rapidly fired at close or long range are a problem outside of military use. As far as any belief that private gun ownership plays a role in controlling the government; it is a giddy fantasy. Honestly to think that the US Army, Marines, National Guard, FBI or police are kept in line by private gun ownership is a joke. I would guess that any Iraqi (that may well own one or more fully automatic weapons) doesn’t feel at all in control of their government or ours - and military weapons there are freely available. You don’t need a CCW in Basra.
In any case I am not an advocate of removing all guns from private ownership. Just stop the production and sale of military weapons to an undereducated, undertrained populace that clearly has no legitmate use for such weapons. Like I said earlier, making distinctions about “assault” weapons from other military weapons designed for warfare is irrelevant. Unless you are trying to stir up fear and panic, like CNN’s AK-47 in Omaha.
As Ike says, many things can be used to kill, hunting rifles, knives, handguns. However, given a choice, I’d much prefer that people bent on going on a rampage were forced to resort to use a sawed-off 12 gauge or bolt-action 30-06 than a semi-auto with a backpack full of clips.
The writer who said that stopping the production and sale of weapons would stop the “undereducated” masses from having them should endorse the same approach to the manufacture, sale, and use of illegal drugs - this would stop all of the drug problems….wait, wait, I think we may already be doing that. How come we still have a drug problem?
Maybe you cannot stop the masses from misusing anthing. The whole mind set has to change. When I was a boy, there were no laws regarding guns except the criminal misuse of them. There was also not as much crime involving firearms. More laws does not mean less crime. It’s an attitude thing.
Exactly, Marine. It is an idiotic thought that more laws create less crime. Blair created a new law a DAY in England during his tenure, and their crime rate has skyrocketed.
It is an idiotic thought that more laws create less crime.
Agreed. I have been contemplating writing articles on why laws against prostitution and drugs should be dropped as well. Good to see we might agree here.
That’s not to say that no laws get rid of all crime.
sort of like the TI getting arrested in Atlanta for buying “machine guns” when in reality he was buying submachine guns and machine pistols
SKS is hardly a “worthless” or “cheap” gun, It is probably the most reliable and one of the most accurate guns I own. I have personally shot a drywall screw in half at 50 yards with a 4x scope. As for being a ” very low power round” Do you realize that the 7.62×39 cartridge is more powerful than a 30-30? its the same caliber projectile with more powder. BTW, for those not in the know, 7.62mm = 0.30 caliber. Load up a JHP and see how much damage you can inflict with your “low power” rounds. All this is irrelevant to the discussion, just about any gun can be used to kill massive amounts of people. As somebody said above, the gun didn’t kill those people, the shooter did. I am so tired of the media loosely throwing around terms that the average American doesn’t fully understand to further their political positions.
I love to laugh at the notion that a hi-cap mag suddenly turns a regular gun into a man killer, I don’t know about you guys, but I can reload my SKS much faster with stripper clips than I can change out the mags. BTW, smithing is only required to make the SKS accept AK mags, 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40rd quick change out mags are readily available for the SKS and require no modification whatsoever to make them work, all you have to do in remove the factory box mag and follower. IMHO, these mags are more of a novelty than anything else. The gun functions much better and jams far less with the use of its stock box mag.
I also think its insane to call the NATO grenade launcher dangerous in any way, where are you going to find the rifle grenades to launch? NTM that 7.62 blanks aren’t exactly growing on trees. The launcher is much more practical as a muzzle break and to reduce felt recoil on the HEAVY “carbine”
As for the comment that 7.62×39 is the cheapest most readily available ammo in the world? Come on man, who are you kidding? 7.62 is in short supply these days and the price is on the rise. 9mm would be the most readily available (probably always will be) and at well under $30 for a 500rd brick, I think the honor of cheapest has to go to the venerable .22lr cartridge. The last time I bought 7.62×39 it was $180 for a case of 1000rds plus shipping!!, none of the local stores stock it anymore, its all going overseas(or staying there) if you guys shoot your SKS’s I’d strongly reccomend stocking up on ammo, cuz it ain’t gonna be around forever, at least not in the US.
I’m sure it’s already been pointed out but the SKS can be modified to fit a banana clip. The SKS is by no means an assault rifle but it is neither worthless or cheap (at least not cheaply made) It’s a decent rifle and isn’t bad for hunting. I think calling it a “glorified bottle shooter” shows how little you actually know about the rifle your self.
Yes, I do own one, but that has no effect on my opinion. It’s a good rifle, there are far better but there are far worse. I find whoever wrote this article probably knows less than he believes judging by his choice of words.
Patrick: I have been reading all the feedback and want to inject some facts about people using/not using guns!University of texas charles whitman 8/1/1966 14 people killed with bolt action rifle, sawed off shotgun!12/6/2007 suicide bomber kills 15 people in Iraq!during Iran/Iraq war in 1980’s 20,000 Iranian troops killed by nerve gas!4/19/ 1995 168 people killed by timothy Mc veigh using fertilizer and nitromethane(Racing fuel) 5,000 pound bomb! And let’s not forget 9/11 2,974 people killed without a GUN!After all these tragic events we did not ban airplanes,fertlizer,or racing fuel much less guns of any type! Bubba made the comment that ak’s ar’s uzi’s are not collectors, or bottle shooters they are shooters! He’s mistaken he says rather than letting people own military style guns,Maybe he does not know you can kill alot more people with a shotgun in close quarters than with (So called) assualt weapon!
9mm would be the most readily available (probably always will be) and at well under $30 for a 500rd brick
Jason please let me know where I can get this price. The best deal I am finding right now is about $40 for 250 9mm.
People are dead, assault rifle or not. Does it matter if he used a $99 SKS a full auto AK-47 or a butter knife? Having said that we should look at the way the media has depicted things and shift some of the responsibility to news outlets. All these shooters know they will receive a ton of media coverage and be infamous for there deeds. The so called “news” media is foaming at the mouth anytime a gun is involved in a crime. Everyone points their finger at gun owners instead of looking at what motivates people to do these things. If it weren’t for the instant celebrity they receive I would be willing to bet the majority of these shooting sprees would never happen. But like everything else, the alarmed and frightened (read: ignorant and scared) public demands the government step in and regulate their lives just a little more. Little do these people know that the more you regulate firearms ownership, the more crime increases.
Colin, regarding drugs:
http://www.city-journal.org/html/7_2_a1.html
The Nooz… I also believe that every able American should exercise concealed carry at all times. Thats not to say that supplementing these practices with a more prepared force would not be a sound decision. As far as “Tubby the Rent a Cop”, I have found that most security departments would have a serious expenditure to undertake if they where to implement armed in house security. I guess they figure that the industry standard of one death every 8 million dollars nullifies the need for pro active solutions.
Marinecorps Writes:
QUOTE: “The writer who said that stopping the production and sale of weapons would stop the “undereducated” masses from having them should endorse the same approach to the manufacture, sale, and use of illegal drugs - this would stop all of the drug problems….wait, wait, I think we may already be doing that. How come we still have a drug problem?”
The war on drugs is a huge joke and not at all a parallel argument to guns. Any idiot farmer can grow weed or cook meth. Any mule can bring bales of dope across the border - but heck, just the homegrown supply is more than enough.
My point is that you need some pretty fancy equipment to mass produce firearms. Getting them across the border may not be too hard, but the fact is that we give the green light in many cases and make it legal. A government would have a much easier time dropping the quantities of military rifle available if it wanted to. Drugs? I agree no way. I challenge any one reading this to come up with a way to mass produce military quality waepons in their basements.
If we take the guns don’t kill people, people do argument to the limit and say that weapsons don’t matter, then why not legalize .50 machine guns, or 20 mm Vulcan Guns? Heck, why not hand grenages, RPGs and nuclear bombs too? If there is no need for limiting access to such weapons - since a killer can use anything - why not mass produce flamethrowers and sell M1 Abrams tanks and Bradley vehicles along side Humvees?
Why not? - Because it would be foolish. I guess it comes down to where do you draw the line and I would argue that we are way over that line. The only fortunate thing is that each time a nut goes off and whacks a bunch of people, more people stand up and ask that something be done. However, there is plenty of ignorance on both sides of this arguement.
I personally do not pretend to have all the answers and some good points were made above explaining that there are some messed up societal problems that need to be addressed as well.
I do not live in fear and personally no longer own any guns - except an old .22 for critter control. The chances of me getting popped by some kid in a mall are infinitesimally small- I have about as much likelihood of winning the MegaBuck$ lottery. Random acts of violence are just that - random. And much to the average person’s belief (dismay?), they don’t happen with much statistical signifance. Nor do people flying 757’s into skyscrapers. I don’t worry too much about needing to carry a gun, but if others feel safer carrying, good luck.
And the shootings keep stacking up…
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-09-colorado-church_N.htm
No telling what make of gun he used. Maybe a Ruger “Ranch Rifle” (designed for rapid repeat shots when the ranch is being over run by prairie dog herds). I keep pointing out the Mini-14 vs the AK47 but nobody is biting … oh well.
I also am pro-gun, but you might not be able to lump me in with the NRA crowd due to my lack of spouting the phrase “law abiding”.
Regulating firearms poses difficult questions, but I agree with the poster who said “we must draw the line somewhere”. Wheel guns, lever actions, pump and bolt actions good… everything else bad sounds a-ok to me. I wont cry if they ban auto-loading firearms…not one tear.
I find it immensely interesting that not one of you know it alls mentioned the Mental Health aspect. It’s a major factor in just about every one of these shooting spree incidents.
If the guys (yes guys… women never carry out mass shootings…more food for thought) were diagnosed and
medicated these people would be alive in most cases.
Sadly, when it comes to the media and politics, logic doesn’t apply.
Its laid out to get the biggest bang for their buck. The media and politicians use AK-47 to describe just about any gun used in a sensational crime. AK-47 has a larger sticking factor in the minds of viewers than Marlin 30/30.
The TV brings the fear into the living rooms and drives home the closeness of the carnage to an uninformed viseral voting public, even though statistically, long guns in the class of guns used to commit this murder number well under 2% of guns used in crime.
Hell, they don’t call it PROGRAMMING for nothing.
Lets blame the gun instead of seaching for the factors that could create a little coward so upset that he is a nothing that he has to kill innocents and drive pressure against the majority of gun owners who seek quality reliable firearms in concert with our heritage. papa
When I come home from work I don’t load my AR-15 or SP-89 and go out and shoot people! I buy most guns as an Investment!But the most chilling statement I have ever heard was Diane Feinstein say “if she could have gotton 51 votes in the senate she would have an outright ban Mr.&Mrs america turn em all in She would have done It”She was speaking of semi-auto military style guns, After that it would have been handguns,shotguns,hunting rifles!You will never stop every person who wants to kill people rather with a gun or jetliner!we should look at people in other countries! Go to Wikipedia under gun laws of switzerland you will learn there are between 1.5 &3.0 million guns floating around and every one in the military between 20&34yo must keep a fully automatic sig arms weapon in their house! when they leave military its converted back to semi auto if they wish to keep it! yet gun violence is low makes you wonder!
I still contend that the 7.62×39 is a very low power round. Saying that it is “much” more powerful than a 110 year old even weaker round does not change the fact that it is much less powerful than a large portion of hunting rounds available today. My point was to demonstrate how absurd it is to claim that the SKS is a substantially more effective killing machine than all the other “non-military” weapons out there. As for the price of 9mm vs. 7.62×39, I should have been more specific. I am referring to rifle ammo. Of course handgun ammo will be cheaper. Other than .22, I have not seen a rifle ammo cheaper than 7.62×39.
The “church shooter” was killed by an “armed security guard” yesterday morning. I rest my case. Armed citizen, armed security, safety and preparedness will solve these problems; period. We must put this hippie fantasy of utopia to rest and look out for one and other. We do not live in fantasy land. It it really all about win or lose. Like Sylvester said back in the 80’s, “As long as we have to play by these bullshit rules and the killers don’t, we’re gonna lose”!
the “security guard” was a volunteer that happened to bring her personal weapon to the church.
Yeah, she saved many lives. Churches (and schools, stores, etc.) that ban CCWs are asking for this sort of thing to happen to them.
People who want to use guns in a hostile manner (such as gang shootings( usually obtain them in an illegal manner, or through a hook up. Now what gangster, on the street is going to have the imagination and idea making to think, hmmm if i take an SKS, and then adapt it for use with the banana… NO! they use common guns, 9mm weapons etc.
These mass murderers are a different, they come up with the weirdest equipment and anything they can get their hands on (SKS anyone?)… it ruins americans who want their rifles as Hunting, Target shooting, and Curiosities.
Oh by the way about the 7.62 not being powerful. Age doesnt really matter, musket balls used to be up at the .60 caliber mark on intermediate rounds dude! 7.62 isn’t a 50 BMG by any standard but getting shot with a 7.62 will end your day abruptly..
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All i wanted was an Mk14 EBR!
oh yeah P.S. If everyone (that qualifies) had a gun, it would put a mind set of, if i shoot him, his buddy will shoot me back, so i won’t shoot him…
and thus the stupid people have a reason not to go ape with a “SKS HEAVY SQUAD AUTOMATIC 105mm AC-130 howitzer with a laser sight on its underslung nuclear rifle
Certainly not an ‘assault rifle’; also certainly not junk. I’ve owned a few of them over the years as they make nice ‘truck rifles’. For the money, they’re dependable, fairly accurate, and have the power to hunt anything one can hunt with a .30-30 Win.
Thank goodness the media hasn’t caught on to the long-range power and accuracy of our scoped deer and elk rifles; while I prefer to not be shot with anything, ever, I’d rather be hit by an assault rifle than a .300 WSM just once.
May God bless the families and comfort them in their loss. And those of us that own guns…we need to police ourselves and store our weapons in safes when they’re not being utilized, with bolts/operating rods/cylinders/slides stored seperately. It won’t stop everybody, but it will stop some of the goblins. It’s worth the effort, at any rate. If we don’t start policing ourselves better, Unc Sam will eventually start doing it for us.
Your description of the rifle may be correct but in putting down the gun and the myths you exploded on another myth, the “rednecks” use it.
Your description of a assault rifle being one that shoots none, one, 3 or multiple rounds is also not very accurate. First of all there is no such thing as a assault rifle, assault is a action and the action of killing someone is not performed by a gun/knife/stick/club/rock it is performed by a person. Enjoy.
anybody who know anything even slightly about guns at all would know that an sks is in fact an assault rifle, a switch dictating how many rounds fired does not constitute an assault rifle. the sks fires the exact same round as the ak47, it can be equipped with 40 round clips, and modified. by the way, in nys among many states in the us, the ak47, which is one of the most famous assault rifles in history, is only semi auto, as well as a lot of variations of m16’s. Get your facts straight “zealfortruth.com, you jackasses…
Seriously,
I am the biggest bleeding heart liberal there is, but we liberals have the gun control issues all wrong. If it were possible to get at least 95% of the ILLEGAL guns off the street, then gun control would be a good goal because it would reduce violence, but since any crazy person, thug, gangster etc. can get a gun whenever they want to harm/threaten others, it does no good to restrict the amount of law-abiding citizens with guns. We should focus on getting ILLEGAL GUNS off the streets!
I’m sure the media rushes out with the story, calling anything that isn’t a pistol an assault rifle, because people were assaulted.
In the People’s Republic of Kalifornia, the SKS is (wrongly) classified as an assault rifle. Anthony, just because people call it an assault rifle doesn’t make it so, just as “cop killer bullets” never (as far as I know) killed any cops. The media and the anti-gun lobby just love the negative publicity that sound-bites generate. This is nothing new, the term “Saturday Night Special” was coined in the 60’s. Kalifornia classifies a semiauto rifle with a bayonet lug, pistol grip, and removable magazine as an assault rifle. If you check history rather than media hype, you’ll find that the true, original meaning was a select-fire (full auto capability)introduced by the Nazis at the end of WWII as “sturmgewehr” as a means to classify this revolutionary rifle. The “civilian” look-alikes are semi-auto only, and despite the rumors, not easily convertible by the average person.
well controlled militia or government? And how do you control a government or militia if you are unarmed?
My question is, is a detail like this really THAT important? The people are still dead, he could have been using a slingshot for all it matters.
i hate the term assault weapon
confuses the uninformed
stupid 90’s
There is no such thing as an “Assault Rifle” the term was made up by ignorant anti-gun people to try and ban scary/military looking weapons because they believed that they are too dangerous and too powerful which isn’t true because the average hunting rifle is far more powerful than an AR or Ak. The truth is all firearms are equally deadly in a skilled user’s hands, even a cheap .22 rifle could be used to kill or wound many people as evident by a recent news story where an 8 year old boy murdered his father and another man with nothing more than a bolt action .22. Gun laws don’t protect anyone except criminals. If you want to protect yourself from gun violence then carry a gun!