A movie entitled The Golden Compass is due out in theaters December 7, 2007 which falls in the genre of children’s fantasy. At this date, it is yet unrated by the MPAA. The movie is based on an award-winning trilogy of books by British author Phillip Pullman called His Dark Materials in the UK, and renamed The Golden Compass in the US. For an extended trailer, look here.
An email campaign started by the Catholic League is calling for a boycott of this movie. However, unlike many email campaigns sent around by church folks, this one has been given credence by including a link to Snopes.com authenticating the veracity of at least some of the complaints about the film, which include:
- The movie is atheism for kids.
- The movie is anti-religion, and particularly anti-Catholic.
- The author despises CS Lewis and the Narnia series.
- The watered down movie will be an enticement to buy the much more pointed books.
My Opinion
I’m a firm believer that Christian parents should be actively engaged in knowing what their kids are reading, watching, listening to, and doing in general. I don’t assume the school reading list is “OK” and I don’t assume kids will make good choices on their own, therefore I should be aware of what they are taking in.
I am probably less of a believer that kids should be kept entirely away from media that portrays anti-Christian themes. My reasoning is this: the best way to deal with values and themes in media that I don’t agree with is to watch the offending material with the child, and then talk to him or her about it. Kids are going to see the stuff somewhere and some time anyway, so it is better if I’m the person who explains it, talks about the real message behind the message, talks about scripture that may be relevant, etc.
I also am a firm believer that parents need to know their children as individuals and be sensitive to each individual child’s intellectual, social, and spiritual maturity level when determining what is OK for them to be exposed to at what point in their development.
I am happy that someone addressed this here.
Naturally, when I got my first forward on this film. I took it right to snopes.
I agree with you entirely. There is no need for these massive boycotts most of the time - especially in this instance. If kids don’t get an understanding of atheism, especially in the safe and open manner which their parents can provide, then they are going to abandon everything they know upon going to college or reading Carl Sagan.
I agree with you guys. Also, I think these boycotts just create more buzz for the movie. It was the same with The DaVinci Code, which was a very badly made movie by the way. My father-in-law rented it, and so I tried to watch it just to see what all the fuss was about. It was so weak. You couldn’t even follow it. But all these people went and saw it (even church groups) because it was controversial, and because Tom Hanks was in it.
There was a pastor on TV who did a whole series about the DaVinci code. I was like, “Okay…and this is important why?” As if Christians need to spend all their time hearing about how some guy is a total reprobate and is leading people astray. And then he went and sold the CDs for like $50 or something. Come on!
Why are christians so defensive? I’m an atheist, but I have no problems with my kids going to see things with a christian (or islamic, or hindu, or new age…) theme. I think it’s highly unlikely that they’d suddenly take up religion as a result. But even if they did, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Whatever works for them in this complex world, that’s my view!
Incidentally, after all the kerfuffle in the States, I went out and read the book. I can’t see how it promotes atheism. Rather disappointing, truth be told!
One of the important things for parents to consider is the age of their children. Young children (0-7 years) have difficulty distinguishing fantasy and reality, and as such the movie or any fantasy movie would probably not be a good choice for them. However, I agree that if an older child truly wants to see a film it is best if the parents watch it with him/her and discuss it afterwards. Children of all ages need to be trained in how to discern what is appropriate and what is not.
I agree, and additionally, the Snopes article is pretty incorrect. His Dark Materials is a very spiritual and challenging series of novels. God is not killed; he dies accidentally as the children try to save him. There is a “god” that is killed, but this character is an imposter and villian who threatens the children. Lyra’s world is not our own, it is an alternate dimension, and in her world, the church has become a twisted perversion of itself that commits horrible crimes in the name of God as a government, much like the Taliban. I can’t see how that is anti-religion at all.
For Thainamu:
Using your argument and logic I will expect that your children will also be watching porn movies so that you can discuss the issues as it relates to the world view and cite scripture that is appropriate.
Do you see how ludicris that type of reasoning is? Of course we as parents should discuss the issues of anti-christian views, pornogrophy, drug use, etc, with our children. It DOES NOT mean that they should watch these movies in order for a valuable discussion to ensue.
Get over your distain for all those “church folks” and for the Catholic League. YOU should read the book and then make an informed decision about whether your children should be exposed to it our not.
I refer you to the website thirdway.org for interviews with Phillip Pullman. He is most certainly anti-christian.
“Children of all ages need to be trained in how to discern what is appropriate and what is not.”
Exactly.
Tom said: “Why are christians so defensive? I’m an atheist, but I have no problems with my kids going to see things with a christian (or islamic, or hindu, or new age…) theme. I think it’s highly unlikely that they’d suddenly take up religion as a result. But even if they did, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Whatever works for them in this complex world, that’s my view!”
I’m not so sure that we Christians are so defensive, but we do take presenting Christianity to our children very seriously. We believe that God wants us to tell them, by both word and deed, about forgiveness in Christ. We do accept the fact that we can’t make that decision for them, but it breaks our hearts when they turn away from Christianity as children or as adults.
I got that email forward, and it prompted me to look up the His Dark Materials series. I find the premise promising, and I intend to read the books. (Not right away. I have a shelf full of books and magazines I have to finish first.)
From the plot descriptions of the books, the series doesn’t sound appropriate for young children being raised in a Christian home. That shouldn’t translate into an automatic boycott of the movie, though.
Tara said: “Lyra’s world is not our own, it is an alternate dimension, and in her world, the church has become a twisted perversion of itself that commits horrible crimes in the name of God as a government, much like the Taliban. I can’t see how that is anti-religion at all.”
I have not read the books, so I’m speaking from conjecture here. The fact that the church in the stories is a perverted version of religion does not necessarily make the books anti-religious. I agree with you there. Here’s the critical test: does Pullman present all religion as perverted? In other words, is he promoting a worldview that assumes all religion will become perverted and evil? If so, then the book is anti-religious. If the book includes positive examples of religion as well as the negative, then it’s not anti-religious.
There are plenty of books that feature evil churches while still allowing for positive portrayals of religion. Those are OK and don’t bother me. The ones that show religion as wholly and unfailingly bad are the ones that give me pause.
I think it’s sad that everyone is quoting the snopes article as evidence of anything. It’s a very one-sided view on the books. Instead of jumping to conclusions, please read…
These two articles have been written by a Catholic scholar:
http://blog.beliefnet.com/idolchatter/2007/10/responding-to-my-fellow-christ.html
http://blog.beliefnet.com/idolchatter/2007/10/meeting-mr-pullman-a-magical-e.html
An another one by an Associate Professor of English:
http://www.goldencompassmovie.com/blog/us/2007/10/31/the-golden-compass-2/#more-159
I actually taught a SS class on the DaVinci Code because I was so disgusted with the way the teacher taught the first of what he planned to be a two part class. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Bible would know instantly that the DaVinci Code isn’t consistent with Christian doctrine, and anyone slightly familiar with history or the people cited in the book know it had no basis in history. It was an entirely fictional book that took advantage of people’s interest in “disproving” Christianity. “Teaching its flaws” in church is a foolish waste of time.
Note: When I taught, it was more of a “let’s explore who really believes these kinds of things and the progression of their views” kind of class. Still not what I would consider “good Bible teaching”, but in my opinion it was better than allowing that teacher to completely waste another class “proving that the book was wrong” by reading random Bible verses. (Any church that has a problem with its members not knowing basic doctrine shouldn’t be wasting time talking about popular culture.)
“I’m not so sure that we Christians are so defensive, but we do take presenting Christianity to our children very seriously.”
In one sense, I think Christians should be defensive. Remember the “weapons of our warfare”: the shield of faith, the helmet of salvation, the breastplate of righteousness, the belt of truth, the sword of the spirit, etc. (Ephesians 6:11-17) These are primarily defensive weapons or armor. But we need to qualify that. These are to be used spiritually because they are not carnal weapons. If someone presents an idea that is non-biblical, we can deflect these things and they shouldn’t harm us at all. The same thing goes for kids. They can learn this just as well if not better than adults. However, we parents are and certainly should be protective of our kids, and should gage where they are in their understanding of these things.
But I think Tom’s comment is noteworthy. The whole Christian “culture war” phenomenon is very defensive in posture - and not in a spiritual way. I’m not going to live my life trying to “protect” the institution of Christian religion, but I am, as Paul said, “set for the defense and confirmation of the Gospel” - which is entirely different. One assumes a victim mentality. The other assumes a victor mentality, always triumphing in Christ and understanding that through Him we are more than conquerers.
I mean you get this idea from some Christians that certain movies, literature, even Pokemon and Sponge Bob Square Pants should be feared. Its like, “Oh no! We’re under attack! We’ve got to save the Christian religion! Run for your lives! Vote Republican! Ahhh!” I don’t take that approach. That’s all fear-based hysteria. Like the psalmist said,
“The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?” (Psalm 27:1)
“Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the Bible would know instantly that the DaVinci Code isn’t consistent with Christian doctrine, and anyone slightly familiar with history or the people cited in the book know it had no basis in history. It was an entirely fictional book that took advantage of people’s interest in ‘disproving’ Christianity. ‘Teaching its flaws’ in church is a foolish waste of time.”
I couldn’t agree more, Atanamis.
In case you all didn’t notice. The official golden compass blog picked this up:
http://www.goldencompassmovie.com/blog/us/
Hmm, should we be happy or sad about that??
My friend’s father is a priest, and he has no trouble with her reading–and absolutely loving–the series.
I agree. Eventually this [subject] will come up, so why not get it over with? In the world today, it’ll be tough to hide the religious conflicts that go on today.
I repeat: The subject will come up.
I think that HDM (His Dark Materials) is not so much of an atheist book, but a very spiritual book that winds around the best of human traits and the unavoidable process of growing up.
Personally, I am surprised by the immaturity of those who fail to realize what HDM is “really” about.
Seriously, do you think that not letting children go to see this will be the form to educate them as cristians. This is ridiculous. Is just a film! Parents has to offer love and education to their children. And decide to hide something to their own children because don’t match with the credo of the parents is really annoying for the child, who will see that their parents hide all the information of the world to their childre. Liberty to have an opinion and to see the diferencies of the world, that the world is very different, that ther are different kinds of thinking is what will do the child a good person and a person with respect of their world and all that envolves. To hide information to the child would transformate this child to a close mind, one who can’t judge the things.
So give love, and liverte to the child and educate them, but seriously don’t hide them the reality of the world.
Sorry for my poor english. I’m an atheist but wiht faith in love, liberty, and the own opinion.
willi, thanks for joining in the discussion. I don’t think anyone here has expressed a desire to hide things from children. The concern is how to expose children to various different worldviews while still raising them to have a biblical understanding of the world. That’s quite a different challenge than just trying to hide everything from them.
It’s easy, you have to raise them to have a biblical understanding of the world by your own words, the things that you explin them. This is the education that they will recive in home, with you. But then, there is the social education that have a lot of views, different each one. The child has to know this views of the world, maintaing at home the world that their parents want to teach them. I have raised in a catholic enviroment when I was a child and belive me, I have trully respect in the biblical understanding of the worl, my essence is this. And while my parents teach me this, they don’t hide me all the others credos of the world. And now as an adult I decided to be an atheist (that is another king of credo). But my essence is cristianity, and always will be. If the parents show the child how important is their belives but with an open mind, the child always will use this belives for good.
Another time, sorry for my poor, poor english. (from Barcelona)
How can you boycott something you never supported (and never intended to do in the future) in the first place?
“I have raised in a catholic enviroment when I was a child and belive me, I have trully respect in the biblical understanding of the worl, my essence is this. And while my parents teach me this, they don’t hide me all the others credos of the world.”
Willi, with all due respect, I think you are an example of what I don’t want my kid to grow up to be. By your own admission, you strayed from what you were taught as a child. I don’t judge you for that, but I am going to have to answer to the Eternal self-existent Creator one day for how I raise my children. A true biblical understanding requires action to support one’s faith. Here are some example of things I believe and how I intend to apply them:
“Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life” (Proverbs 4:23).
Other translations say “guard your heart.” If I am to guard my own heart, how much more that of my daughter’s?
And Jesus reiterated this principle when he said, “Carefully consider what you hear” (Mark 4:24).
So if I really believe this, I must put my belief into action. I don’t just go around listening to anything and everything, and I’m not going to let my daughter entertain just any kind of thought either. Does this mean my daughter will live a sheltered life? No, but as her father I must judge when and how opposing ideas are introduced to her, and never to allow these things to go unchecked without biblical instruction. When she is old enough, she will make her own decision. But I am fully persuaded she will not depart from what she is taught.
“How can you boycott something you never supported (and never intended to do in the future) in the first place?”
Jasen, you just blew my mind.
Nancy Keener said: “Get over your distain for all those “church folks” and for the Catholic League. ”
Sorry, Nancy, it appears your early comment got hung up in our moderation system, so I’m only just now reading it.
I have no disdain for church folks–I are one of them! I do like to poke fun a little, though, because sometimes we church folks have our heads in the sand a little. I try not to be too malicious in my poking fun.
You notice my last sentence of the article: “I also am a firm believer that parents need to know their children as individuals and be sensitive to each individual child’s intellectual, social, and spiritual maturity level when determining what is OK for them to be exposed to at what point in their development.” A wise parent will be tuned in to their children enough to know when is a good time to expose them to a given thing and when it is too early. But it is pretty short sighted, for instance, to think that just because I forbid any porn in my house/tv/computer that my child is never going to see it. Certainly I wouldn’t take them to XXX movie just to talk to them about pornography. But I can talk to them about pornography when the topic comes up on the TV news, or when “business women” in TV shows show deep cleavage, or even when their friend’s parents get a divorce because of pornography in the home.
The commercials for this film are very enticing so I researched the books to learn more. (I even posted about it back in July) I have to say I agree with Jew that, “the series doesn’t sound appropriate for young children being raised in a Christian home.” Certain points in the plot downright disturbed me (although I think most of those points take place in the sequels and hence won’t be in this particular movie).
That being said, I think a boycott of the movie is being a bit rediculous - and they should make sure to boycott the book while they’re at it. Exposure to these films and how you choose to deal with it is a personal decision - based on personal convictions. Educating others on certain aspects is one thing - then they can make their own decision. Rather than sending out a rally cry based solely on one or two person’s personal convictions.
“Willi, with all due respect, I think you are an example of what I don’t want my kid to grow up to be. By your own admission, you strayed from what you were taught as a child.”
“But I am fully persuaded she will not depart from what she is taught.”
But I think it’s an error to think this because every person has to choose as an adult his/her credo. You can’t obligate him/her to be the person you want. You can teach your children all yours belive and the way you understand the word, but fianlly, will be he/she who will choose, and this has nothing to do with the thing you have teach them, because as an adult your children will have the oportunity to choose their way and you, as a parent, will have to respect the direction your children have decided to take. What if your childre as an adults come and say you that they belive different than you. This is always a possibility that have to count, liberty is very important, and to choose and not your way is the kind of think I belive.
I think that as a parents we have to show childrens all the possibilities of credos and then is the adult children that have to choose.
I would rather spend my time boycotting movies such as Saw 4, or Hostile, or Captivity, or the Vacancy. These are the kind of movies that we should be concerned about, along with the war in Iraq.
There’s no such thing as a true atheist. These are self proclaimed titles for those who are ingnorant on purpose. They, like the writer of the books that led to this special effect piece of cinematic trash simply choose to deny the obvious.
I for one, will not support the film or video.As for the Author, he too shall bow his knee before the “Magesterion” one day just prior to his judgement. Human pride would murder God if it could… this film proves it. Disney continues to hit an all time low by taking on such reprobate projects as this.
willi, you are absolutely right that parents can’t force their kids to believe anything. I’ll repeat what I said earlier:
“…but we do take presenting Christianity to our children very seriously. We believe that God wants us to tell them, by both word and deed, about forgiveness in Christ. We do accept the fact that we can’t make that decision for them, but it breaks our hearts when they turn away from Christianity as children or as adults.”
“Why are Christians so defensive?”
Because we have a warped view of God that supposes he hates sin so much that if we don’t adhere to the proper formula of life, he will gladly condemn us to eternal torture. This puts a premium on getting the formula right, leaving little margin for error. We can’t take the chance that our kids earn damnation by becoming atheists…or worse, liberals.
All sarcasm aside, fear too often replaces love as the driving force behind our movement. On a personal note, I think my own faith would be less screwed up if my parents hadn’t been (with good intentions) so defensive.
“We can’t take the chance that our kids earn damnation by becoming atheists…or worse, liberals.”
How is this not bad, especially the atheism part? I am not willing to do something that might lead my child down the path to damnation.
“Fear too often replaces love…”
Hmm, does God not command us to FEAR him? And does God not say that He hates sin?
Unfortunately, Hungry, I think you have a warped view of God’s holiness.
That said, back to the topic at hand… I find the boycott of the GC (and Harry Potter before it) overblown, but at the same time, it does help inform parents who might otherwise not realize the implications of the GC.
“You can’t obligate him/her to be the person you want. You can teach
your children all yours belive and the way you understand the word, but fianlly, will be he/she who will choose, and this has nothing to do with the thing you have teach them”
The Bible says to “train up a child in the way he should go, and even when he is old he will not depart from it.” Proverbs 22:6
“But I think it’s an error to think this because every person has to choose as an adult his/her credo. You can’t obligate him/her to be the person you want. You can teach your children all yours belive and the way you understand the word, but fianlly, will be he/she who will choose, and this has nothing to do with the thing you have teach them, because as an adult your children will have the oportunity to choose their way and you, as a parent, will have to respect the direction your children have decided to take.”
Willi, while I perfectly understand your logic, I respectfully disagree. Certainly we could all cite any number of examples of children who digressed from their upbringings. But this is where faith comes into play, and since you do not profess faith in God, I can see where you may not understand this.
At any rate, let me explain it this way: very few things God provides for humanity is received automatically. God provided his only Son so that whoever believes in Him would not perish but have everlasting life. The provision was provided to everyone, including you. The fact that you have chosen not to believe it doesn’t make it less true. In fact all things that pertain to life and godliness have been (past tense) provided to humanity through Christ, but it is only received by faith. We partake of the divine nature by applying faith to God’s promises. Here is one such promise:
“Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6).
The catch is the promises only apply to those who believe them. The difference between you and me is I believe this promise, and therefore I am fully persuaded that God - who cannot lie - will bring to pass that which he has said. I do not intend to “obligate” my daughter to believe anything, because I don’t have to. All I have to do is train her in the way she should go.
We should keep in mind that Proverbs is a book of proverbs, not doctrines, commandments, or promises.
“That said, back to the topic at hand… I find the boycott of the GC (and Harry Potter before it) overblown, but at the same time, it does help inform parents who might otherwise not realize the implications of the GC.”
Point well taken. I never thought of it that way, but I think you’re right.
“If religion were true, its followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honourable course, but cheat at their game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction.” H.P. Lovecraft
I was raised in a very conservative home and, from an early age, was taught that there was only one “way it was”. As I grew up, I had more questions and became more unsatisfied with the standard answers. I’ve been on a quest of sorts ever since.
Interesting to note I saw no protesters at the screening of “The Lion The Witch And The Wardrobe”; a movie that I saw myself and enjoyed.
Although I respect those with religious views and fully support those of faith in teaching their children in that manner in their own home. However, I despise those who, if given the power, would use the police power of government to make me live in the manner that they do.
I offer this idea as it pertains to The Golden Compass. Let your children see it, read the books, educate yourself, explain the meaning to your children and let them think for themselves. Who knows? Your children might return all the stronger for the effort.
I’m a big Lovecraft fan, but do you really want to take advice about religion from a racist writer of horror stories?
“The catch is the promises only apply to those who believe them. The difference between you and me is I believe this promise, and therefore I am fully persuaded that God - who cannot lie - will bring to pass that which he has said. I do not intend to “obligate” my daughter to believe anything, because I don’t have to. All I have to do is train her in the way she should go.”
Chris, are you arguing that based on Proverbs 22:6, properly training children “in the way they should go” unfailingly leads them to the lifestyle you desire? This position is incongruous with reality, as many people who have abandoned their parents’ faith—including posters on this blog—will testify to.
“Hmm, does God not command us to FEAR him? And does God not say that He hates sin?”
According to the Bible, yes. But much like the GC boycott, we’ve blown these way out of proportion.
“Unfortunately, Hungry, I think you have a warped view of God’s holiness.”
I am in constant awe of God’s holiness. I’ve even more awed by his decision to love us and crawl into the mess we’ve made of our lives, relentlessly pursuing a relationship that we so often scorn. This love scares me far more than his wrath.
David articulated well the point I was flippantly trying to make. I firmly believe that if we teach our kids to think and model Christ’s love for them, we will be surprised at the depth of their commitment to Jesus. Of course, some will go their own way, but I believe God designed us to choose him or reject him as we so desire.
I realize that as a single bum without kids of my own, it is really easy for me to theorize and speak hypothetically; I’m sure everything changes when you’re talking about your own flesh and blood that you helped bring into the world. Please believe that I’m sensitive to that reality.
“We should keep in mind that Proverbs is a book of proverbs, not doctrines, commandments, or promises.”
It is true that Proverbs is a book of proverbs, but to say that it isn’t a book of “doctrines” or “promises” would be incorrect. First of all, consider the introduction to the book itself:
1The proverbs of Solomon the son of David, king of Israel;
2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;
3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;
The word “instruction” in verse three would be synonymous with the word “teaching” or “doctrine”. Sure, these are proverbs but they’re not fortune cookie proverbs. They are scripture, and all scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction and instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16). And if it comes as inspiration from God, it would have to be true. So whether it would technically qualify as a “promise” would really be a moot point. God cannot lie.
But in keeping with the biblical principle that every word should be established from the mouth of two or three witnesses, let me give you another reason believers can be assured of their children’s futures. I could give you more, but hopefully this will suffice:
“And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee” (Deuteronomy 28:11).
This promise, given to the Israelites under the Old Covenant would have to be applicable to those under the New Covenant, which is established on even better promises. But certainly we haven’t lost the benefits of the first covenant. This is confirmed by Second Corinthians 1:20 which tells Christians that ALL the promises of God are “yea and amen” in Christ. So we have this guarantee that the fruit of our bodies, our children in other words, will be blessed. And as long as the conditions of the promise are met, we have every right to expect the benefit to be made manifest.
“Chris, are you arguing that based on Proverbs 22:6, properly training children “in the way they should go” unfailingly leads them to the lifestyle you desire? This position is incongruous with reality, as many people who have abandoned their parents’ faith—including posters on this blog—will testify to.”
I never used the word “unfailingly”. That denotes flawlessness. Nevertheless, let the scripture speak for itself. Do I intend to push off on my children the life that I desire for them? Not at all. You misunderstand. The life that God wants for all his children is revealed in scripture. I can only aim to teach my children according to the wisdom that comes from God. So training children in the way they should go is training them in accordance with God’s instruction. I mean, who but God knows the way? Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. And he is the Word made flesh.
But let me reiterate that the benefits God provides to His children are not necessarily automatic. In order for me or anyone else to see the benefit from this (or any other scripture) it requires that I believe what is said. If you don’t believe it, it won’t work for you. The benefits of the Covenant are supplied by grace (God’s provision) through faith (our belief and corresponding action or confession). Is Christ the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the whole world? Yes, he is. But in order to receive remission from sins, one must take hold of the free gift of salvation by confessing with one’s mouth and believing in one’s heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. The gift is for everyone. The question is: who will receive it, and therefore believe it?
Wow, you guys have given me a lot to think about. I’m glad I read your views! I have changed positions in the last ten minutes. Cool.
I understand and respect all your feelings and all the things you have said, but seriously I think that to boycott a film has nothing to do with that. I don’t understand how a group (being christian or atheist or wetheber) can sub and boycott a thing, seriously, I don’t understand. We, the atheist never boycott the religious stuff of the world, never. I respect all the opinions, feelings, religions, all. And to boycott somethink, prohibe it is for me, a little dictatorial. To prohibe, boycott it’s not the correct way for me. Only that. And if you belive strongly and teach strongly all this credo to your children then you don’t have to fear this movies, books. You have to respect that there are different oppionios in the world, that your opinion it’s not the only in the worl. The only think I ask is a little of respect for ( in this case) the litterature of Philip Pullman and the film is being made. Boycott it’s a kind fo censure. And the censure brings us to the dictetorial state.
Another time sorry for my english. Thanks!
Willi, thanks for joining our conversation. I hope you’ll keep posting; I wish we had more atheists voicing their opinions on this blog. I often wonder how the conventional wisdom of Christians looks to outsiders. And don’t worry, your English is way better than my Spanish.
I agree with the boycotting. It is very inapproite, espicially for children. Plus, there is no way you can kill God. He may be an atheist, but there is no reason for him to be writing books for children in this manner. I go to a christian school and all of the mibble school and up are going to get people to sign a patition to boycott it so it won’t play in the theaters. I think we should boycott it through the U.S.
Why are Christians so defensive? Maybe it’s because every time we try to use our “freedom of religion”, we get bashed and told that we can’t do that. So lets make a movie about how atheists are so stupid and how so wrong, and lets see how you feel about it.
First, let me say that I am a liberal who loves God. Democrat does not equal athiest. Chrstians are defensive because of all of the horrible things that are done everyday “in the name of God” or “for God”. God gave us free will people! Go see it or don’t, but be prepared for the day your children ask you if you are going to hell because you took the Lord’s name in vain, or because you shot that abortion doctor. You cannot chose your commandments, there aren’t major or minor ones to follow. Book burning didn’t work out so well for Hitler. In spite of what you agree with or do not agree with, how about we just try living our lives as caring neighbors and leave it at that!
I’m an atheist.
I hope people do watch the movie, read the books, and really examine if their religion is authentic. There are lots of best selling atheism books out there, I hope it encourages people to read them and question their “faith.”
If your God sends children to hell foe eternity just because they enjoyed a movie about a girl and her bear, you shouldn’t be worshipping that God anyway.
“be prepared for the day your children ask you if you are going to hell because you took the Lord’s name in vain, or because you shot that abortion doctor. You cannot choose your commandments, there aren’t major or minor ones to follow. ”
Yes, because if you’re pro-life you must be okay with killing abortion doctors…what a false dichotomy. I feel for your kids and the lies you appear likely to teach them. You have given us a great example of how difficult (I would say nearly impossible) it is to be liberal AND Christian; liberalism is a feelings-first religion, with feeling good put ahead of actually doing good.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_4_oh_to_be.html
“I feel for your kids and the lies you appear likely to teach them.”
That depends on your definition of “lies.” Is teaching kids to think for themselves so bad? Or at least giving them the opportunity to do so? And “feeling good put ahead of actually doing good”–what? Funnily enough, I’m one of those pesky people who doesn’t really fit into that slot. I may be a liberal, I may be an atheist; that doesn’t make me a bad person; nor does it make me any less concerned with doing good.
I loved HDM–all three books. Not because I’m an atheist, but because they’re well-written, intriguing, and thought-provoking stories about growing up, learning, and choosing your own path.
Please don’t boycott this movie. It’s just a movie. A story. A fantasy, like Lord of the Rings or Narnia. Only it was written by someone who didn’t agree with Tolkien or Lewis, so OBVIOUSLY it must be bad. Really.
We as consumers vote when we spend our money. When we spend money on a product (film) we support those who made the film/story and their agendas.
It’s important that people know about the author and his Anti-Christian attitude. If it wasn’t for a small blurb on a Christian site I would have never known. With this knowledge now I will make an informed decision and not Vote/Support this movie.
This is not a harmless childrens movie, it was evident when I read comments of the director:
“I knew immediately that I wanted to translate these books to film. I was absolutely stunned by the imagination, daring and intelligence of the books. Pullman’s insights range from the everyday to the metaphysical, and his great trilogy is a testament to nothing less than the freedom and potential of the human soul.” - Chris Weitz, Golden Compass
Thank You,
I pray that many Christians see this and are empowered to not support the movie; Freedom in Christ. In Jesus’ name, God Bless.
“I feel for your kids and the lies you appear likely to teach them. You have given us a great example of how difficult (I would say nearly impossible) it is to be liberal AND Christian; liberalism is a feelings-first religion, with feeling good put ahead of actually doing good.” That is exactly the sort of mean-spirited, narrow-minded thinking that would turn me away from Christians if I weren’t already one. Come on, Darius, you’re better than that.
By the way, I’m a liberal Christian, and my faith and spiritual experience have very little to do with “feeling good.” Taking Jesus seriously is often decidedly uncomfortable, as he promised it would be.
You know,I may be 14, but I care enough to do something about it. If you don’t believe in God thats your choice but I say that we still try to boycott it because if this is the work of Satan, there will be a lot a lives turned against God. As I said before, middle school and up are going to get people to sign a patition to keep it from plating in theaters. Try to boycott it in your theaters too. It might keep several people from seeing it.
I have 5 younger siblings.I CARE ABOUT THEM!!!!!
To respond to
Tom Rees response on why are we Christians so defensive and how he doesn’t care what his children watch. We get defensive cause we care for others well being. We don’t want people to go to hell we want people to believe so they can have hope, love, etc.. for others and go to heaven when they die. It is an important cause I would say. By saying you as an atheist don’t mind what your children watch you are showing your children that you don’t stand or believe in anything. I don’t think that is a good thing to show your children. Show them what God has in store for them, that is the best gift a parent can give a child. I am sorry that you have nothing to believe in. Get a Bible and read and I believe your life will be changed. I will pray for you. I believe movies that teach children wrong are all bad. We have enough bad things on Earth we don’t need movies teaching children to kill God. I feel sorry for this producer because the Bible says, “It is better wear a milestone around your neck and jump in the sea than lead a child to harm”.
A point missed in this discussion is the disparity between the vocal “hand wringing” atheists exhibit when any christian symbol or ideal is presented in a public forum, and this “christian protectionism.” If the theme of the movie was the evils of atheists, the outcry would be loud, oppressive, and a mainstay of the left sided media outlets. And yes, it would be a forum for the ACLU and other liberal organizations. I don’t for one see this as a big deal, but rather a double standard that liberals embrace for more self righteous reasons than lofty goals such as ensuring seperation of church and state. It’s more about increasing membership and creating a buzz. From killing public prayer at high school athletic events to taking down the ten commandments from court houses, there has been an indidious attack on christian ideology that is PART and PARCEL of US History. I believe this self propogating evolution of ‘targeted rights’ in the US is why christians should be defensive. Disparity in freedom of speech equals injustice. As for this particular film, it is obviously rooted in an atheist’s agenda and therefore is irrelevant to me as a christian.
Hungry, to be clear, I was talking about liberal POLITICS, not liberal Christianity. I assumed that’s what “momof2plus1″ was referring to. Liberal politics is the essence of putting feeling good ahead of actually doing good. To just name a few liberal political positions that prove this… welfare, environmentalism, the U.N., etc. The politically liberal position on all of these has nothing to do with actually doing anyone any good, except to make liberals feel good about themselves.
“Googlebot” is Darius… seems to do that to me sometimes.
“Hungry, to be clear, I was talking about liberal POLITICS, not liberal Christianity.”
My apologies for misunderstanding. Your use of the word “religion” threw me off. While I agree that many politically liberal positions don’t accomplish much good, it’s probably unfair to say they just want to feel good about themselves. Although, to be honest, I have encountered people who meet your description. More common though, at least in my experience, their idealism is simply misguided. Just my observation. Again, sorry for the misunderstanding.
BTW, who is this GoogleBot, and what have you done with Darius?
You shouldnt take it so seriously i’m a great fan of the series and i am an a non-believer but let kids live their lives and make their own decisions
If we Christians are truly ambassadors for Christ, as the New Testament teaches, I think we should be very careful about how we present our faith to those outside of it. We have been entrusted by Christ with the word and ministry of reconciliation. Certainly that does not suggest that we should compromise our message, but we must not say anything that would unnecessarily create a negative image of our Master. Certainly some people will develop their own jaded notions without any help from us, but I’m not talking about that.
Keep this in mind when posting “Christian” themed posts on the internet: the weapons of our warfare are not carnal. So this whole tone about how “I feel sorry for your children, you godless heathen” and the like is not helpful. Remember those bracelets that said, “WWJD”? Well, that may have been a cheesy gimmick, but that is a relevant question. Would Jesus insult unbelievers? If you say he would, that qualifies you as being ignorant of his ministry. Spiritual warfare is not cultural warfare. It is not Liberal or Conservative. It is presupposed on the idea that Christ died for all, and that those who lack faith in him are blinded by the god of this world. As a believer, your primary directive should be to see people respond to the love of Christ. That is not accomplished by carnal arguments. In fact, such behavior actually has the opposite effect.
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
- I Peter 2:22-24
When the author himself indicates his books are about children killing God, it amazes me that we defend the subject matter, quality of the story or anything else. Language and visual images are powerful, and as parents we have the choice of what our children are exposed to. Philip states openly he is an atheist who set out to debunk the Christian themes in Narnia and to further write a series about children killing God. However people interpret his work, we should be clear of the authors intent and the ideas he intended to promote.
Further, the Christmas release is not be accident. We have free choice and free will, but as a Christian parent I hope that my peers get less caught up on the boycott message and work fervently to invest their time, resources and energy into something that will truly entertain - without lightly taking God in vain.
Chris, the person I was speaking to when I made the “I feel for your kids” statement professes to be a Christian, yet made the insinuation that being pro-life means that you don’t mind seeing abortion doctors killed. Such a mindset I do pity, especially those (her children) to whom she passes it on.
“Chris, the person I was speaking to when I made the ‘I feel for your kids’ statement professes to be a Christian, yet made the insinuation that being pro-life means that you don’t mind seeing abortion doctors killed. Such a mindset I do pity, especially those (her children) to whom she passes it on.”
I stand corrected. I wasn’t speaking of you specifically, though, just the general way in which Christians engage unbelievers and atheists about God. But, I would say that it still isn’t a good idea to go to that level with a brother either - particularly when we know what kind of audience is listening. Nevertheless, the thing I would communicate to you and everyone else is that the love of Christ compels me to forgive and forget about it. I know I’ve taken things too far on ZFT myself, so I can’t hold it against you. (The whole racist accusation comes to mind.) Let us commit to Christianly discourse, particularly on this thread.
I will not go to the movie nor will I allow (Yes, ALLOW) my children to go. As a parent I have the obligation to protect my children the way I see best. That includes training (there’s that word again!!!) them to think on things that are true, right, and pure. That’s my job as a parent and my promise as a Christian.
Also, if I were to loan you my car and give you directions to your destination I would tell you about the great road you will take but I would spend an equal or greater amount of time on the dangers along the way (i.e. a steep cliff). You athiests are seriously headed for danger. You need to know that. My God is one that loves you so much He will not force you to live with him in eternity since you chose not to on earth. Lest any of you want to play that card!
Boycott? No, I’m just not planning on seeing this film, or taking my kids to see it. But I can honestly say that about most films. I find most (althoght not all) contemporary films to be vile and base.
Chris, point taken.
Darius
I believe in God very strongly but fantasies are not to be confused with reality. Fantasies have been written for many years describing other-worldly evils and places where God does not jump in to save the day at any time. These are not bad or evil stories but just fantasies. I do not want my children to grow up without knowing that God is in their life but that education and those values are up to me to teach. I don’t expect movies or books to give by children their moral values. Yes, I do object to pornography and having children exposed to it at all, but that is a totally different can of worms. I do think that children’s (and adult) fantasies, as long as children know that they are fantasies, are going to turn my children into atheists, devil worshipers, or anti-Christian people because it is up to me to guide them in what I consider good moral and religious values. A ban on a fantasy is ludicrous. Think of all the fantasies that we have grown up with: Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, and many more. They seemed to say there were supernatural powers other than God but were never banned because “THEY’RE FANTASIES!”
Sorry but as I posted and re-read my last reply, I spotted typos that I made. The one sentence “I don’t expect movies or books to give by children …” should say “I don’t expect movies or books to give my children …” The sentence that says “I do think that children’s (and adult) fanatasies, as long as children know that they are fantasies, are going to turn my children …” should say “I do not think that children’s (and adult) fanatasies, as long as children know that they are fantasies, are going to turn my children …”Sorry!
“A ban on a fantasy is ludicrous. Think of all the fantasies that we have grown up with: Cinderella, Alice in Wonderland, and many more. They seemed to say there were supernatural powers other than God but were never banned because ‘THEY’RE FANTASIES!’”
I’m not coming out in support of the boycott, because like Jasen said, you can’t really boycott something you wouldn’t normally see anyway. But I think the thing that has really gotten people up in arms about this movie is the overt anti-God tone of the author. Whether you support the boycott (not a ban) of the movie or not, I think the author’s comments alone make this situation unique in comparison to the other fantasy novels or movies you mentioned.
Fred, I agree. This is why I was ticked at Christians when they started boycotting Harry Potter… just do good parenting, and the movies/books are harmless!! However, as Chris said, this movie (even more the book) is explicitly anti-God. Three things that a boycott does here: inform Christian parents about the background of a movie that they wouldn’t otherwise know, protect kids from destructive worldviews, and, most importantly, inform Hollywood that big profits are not to be had when they make anti-Christian trash. It would have been best had the boycott call been kept to the Christian community, but that’s impossible with the media today.
I’ve read through many of the responses above, and thought I’d like to clarify what I wrote in my earlier post (number 5, I think). There’s is a reason I’m happy to let my children watch films, read books etc that have a philosophical and ethical outlook different to my own atheism. That’s partly because I think that atheism has a very strong intellectual basis, and so can withstand a bit of critical examination. But more to the point, I accept that I might be wrong - maybe buddhism or even christianity is the correct path. The best thing I can do for my kids is to open up their world for them, and help them to make the life choices that are right for them.
How different is christianity! Many folks here think that if their children are exposed to different ways of thinking, they might stop being christian! Why might that be, do you suppose? To me it seems like a tacit admission that christianity is rather like the Emperor’s New Clothes, and can only be sustained if it goes unchallenged. Incidentally, I think you’re probably right!
Golden Compass is not particularly atheist. It shouldn’t be able to turn your kids. You shouldn’t need to worry. But reading some of the responses I realise that you do need to worry. Some of your kids have been so closeted, so cut off from alternative ways of looking at the world, that they’ll find even the mildly alternative viewpoint in the Golden Compass a surprise! And I think that, if they have any intellectual curiosity at all, they won’t thank you for that when they grow up.
As a former atheist who is now a Catholic with a 7-year old, I would allow my child to see this movie. Sooner or later he will be exposed to the “philosophies of this world” and I think the sooner the better that we may have an open discussion about such issues as the diversity of religion or lack thereof (one of my best froends remains an atheist). It does seem to me that a wise and loving creator has uses for people of many beliefs. Incidently, I have had several debates with my dear atheist friend and we have come to a common ground that belief or disbelief in a supreme being is a faith choice as there is no way of proving either side. To those inclined, I would point to the lack of a astrophysics “crane” and to the honest work of Stephen Jay Gould.
AMDG
Garnet McRiff
Tom Rees, I understand your frustration with the Christian position. I’m a big fan of allowing open discussion and of making sure children have the freedom to see and learn about various philosophies and worldviews. Insulating kids in a closed Christian bubble does them a disservice. I agree with you on that point.
But I believe you are mischaracterizing the Christian response to the Golden Compass movie. To be concerned about a movie or book’s message is not to admit that one’s religion is a house of cards. Christians aren’t afraid that The Golden Compass will undermine Christianity or turn millions of children into atheists. They’re just looking for ways to entertain their kids, and they’d like to find entertainment options that aren’t offensive to religion and Christianity.
On the other hand, I do believe that the books and movies kids watch affect their later beliefs. E.g., I’m a libertarian, and I trace that back (at least partly) to all the Poul Anderson and Robert Heinlein stories I read when I was growing up. So I can see that a child raised on a steady diet of books and movies that portray religion in a negative light could result in that child growing up with a warped, unrealistic view of religion. The reverse is true, too: a child raised in a closeted Christian bubble will have a warped, unrealistic view of other worldviews.
“That’s partly because I think that atheism has a very strong intellectual basis, and so can withstand a bit of critical examination. But more to the point, I accept that I might be wrong - maybe buddhism or even christianity is the correct path. The best thing I can do for my kids is to open up their world for them, and help them to make the life choices that are right for them.”
I would agree that atheism has a strong intellectual basis, and that’s why to some extent, it is difficult to communicate Christianity to those who don’t believe in God. Christianity and many other belief systems acknowledge that man is an eternal spirit. The message is of Jesus is a spiritual message, and can only impact a life when it pricks the heart of a person. So the “born-again” experience is not psychological or intellectual by nature. Jesus said, “My words are spirit and they are life.” And speaking of the New Birth he said, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
Christianity can stand up to historical scrutiny, but can it stand up to intellectual scrutiny? Maybe not. But the question is whether it was intended to. Consider the words of the Apostle Paul:
19For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
20Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
-I Corinthians 1:19-21
Tom Rees said: “That’s partly because I think that atheism has a very strong intellectual basis, and so can withstand a bit of critical examination. But more to the point, I accept that I might be wrong - maybe buddhism or even christianity is the correct path. The best thing I can do for my kids is to open up their world for them, and help them to make the life choices that are right for them.”
Tom, first of all, I appreciate your tone–it is nice to hear the words of an atheist who does not speak disrespectfully to Christians and who does leave the option open as possibly being wrong.
Second, on the topic of Christianity not having an intellectual basis. Lots of people have been arguing about that for lots of years. I see plenty of historical, scientific, and human evidence for supporting Christianity, but I would say that, because I’m a believer. However, those discussions are pretty much beside the point, because at the very bottom of the stack is the point that Chris Austere brings up–our religion is one of faith; if there were evidence beyond a doubt, then we wouldn’t call it faith.
Third, is about you helping your kids “make the life choices that are right for them.” The fact that you use the word “right” makes me ask how do you determine “right,” or even “right for them”? Do you as an atheist really mean something like, “help them make life choices that they really want?” or “help them make life choices that I really want?” What I’m asking is–how do you figure out what is right for your child if you have no god to refer to?
Christians do have something “right” to give (or at least show) to their kids, yet, we have to accept the fact that they, as human beings, also have the ability and the right to reject what we want them to have, even if it breaks our hearts.
On the subject of atheism, the biggest difficulty that atheists have is addressing the subject of morality. After all, if morality is only a passing evolutionary whim, who’s to say that one person’s (or culture’s) morality isn’t another person’s (or culture’s) past morality, something that they have evolved out of? If man makes up his own morality, what makes any particular moral system better or more legitimate than another?
Would anyone have cared if the author was not atheist? Would these “tones” still be transparently obvious? And how many people talking about “children killing God” really read any of the books? How can anyone judge, when they do not know what they are judging? As Christians we are taught to look at the true soul of anything, not to judge on false statements. What would have happened to the Lepers if Jesus had passed them by as social rejects? Would Jesus have ever said the famous “Let he without sin cast the first stone”? How many children would actually see any supposed anti-religion themes? Children are innocents who see only what they are taught to see, so why think that this movie or the books would be taken in anything other than an innocent light?
PluggedInOnline’s newletter today had some interesting quotes from the author.
QUOTE:”Atheism suggests a degree of certainty that I’m not quite willing to accede. I suppose, technically, you’d have to put me down as an agnostic. But if there is a God, and he is as the Christians describe him, then he deserves to be put down and rebelled against. As you look back over the history of the Christian church, it’s a record of terrible infamy and cruelty and persecution and tyranny. How they have the bloody nerve to go on Thought for the Day and tell us all to be good when, given the slightest chance, they’d be hanging the rest of us and flogging the homosexuals and persecuting the witches.” —Philip Pullman, author of the fantasy series His Dark Materials (the first installment of which, The Golden Compass, hits the big screen on Dec. 7). On his writing desk, Pullman has a note he wrote that says, “So: There is a God, but he is a liar and he’s mortal,” a sentence which does an excellent job of summarizing the spiritual message of his series. Pullman has not been reticent about whom he’s targeting with that message: kids. “I wanted to reach everyone,” he said, “and the best way I could do that was to write for children.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2002/01/29/bopull27.xml
QUOTE: “‘My books are about killing God.’ So said Philip Pullman, author of The Golden Compass, the movie version of which is soon to be released. One expects that religious parents will keep their children away from the film. ‘But why?’ the question arises from liberals. ‘What are you afraid of?’ My children losing God, especially before they have a firm hold on Him, that’s what. At some point they will question the existence of God. I did. It’s normal to do so. I want more than anything else I want for my children, even their own happiness in this life, for them to believe in God, who is their salvation. If you believe in God, and that the loss of God is the worst thing that can happen to a person, then you would sooner give your child a rattlesnake to play with than expose him or her at an early age to the work of a man who openly says he wishes to destroy God in the minds of his audience.” —beliefnet.com contributor Rod Dreher
Unfortunetly, I have read the books, and it is true that in the finale book, the children bare a striking resemblence to Adam and Eve. and they DO kill God and allow all to do as they please. This man is sadistic in his campaign to sell atheism to children. It is up to the parents whether or not to allow their children to see this movie. I personally wil not give this man my hard earned money. and it is all well and good that atheists bring their children to see christian movies or islamic or what have you. but to bring a child to see. or to by a child a book. that depicts a negative view on religion is not for some one else to deciede and the fact that it is not being overly broadcasted that he is an atheist and that the books are anti religion is a falsification of intentions and a blatent slap to all people of our free nation.
Thanks to those who have responded - this isn’t a good place to cover some of the points raised but I just wanted to touch on them briefly. Thainamu and Darius want to know how atheists can be moral. Well, the source of morality is our need to live together in harmony. I promise to follow the golden rule, and so do you. It doesn’t always work out - sometimes people cheat, which is why as a society we put together laws and guidelines for behaviour. We (mostly) all sign up to them because it’s in our own best interests to. Also, I am an empathic being - I care about others. This is a product of our evolutionary heritage. Scientific research shows that christians are no more moral than atheists. http://bhascience.blogspot.com/2007/10/are-religious-more-caring-or-do-they.html
Jim, if, in a story, god is killed, then it’s not an atheist book. Atheists don’t think that god exists at all - so you can’t kill him. The character who features at the end of Pullman’s is an archetype. This archetype stands for oppression, for appeals to authority rather than reason and justice and also for closed-minded bigotry. This being goes by the name of ‘god’, but he clearly isn’t god as well-meaning christians portray him. These are things that the christian church has championed on several occasions in the past, and Pullman picks up on this to increase the emotional resonance. The books then can be seen as an allegory about ’slaying’ the ‘god’ (or daemon, if you prefer) of persecution and intolerance.
But that doesn’t make them anti-christian - so long as the god you stand for is open, tolerant, and not in favour of banning and boycotting and controlling. They are thought provoking, and inspiring. I would recommend them to all children. Incidentally, I’m not alone in this. Rowan Williams, Archibishop of the Church of England, has suggested that they should be required reading for shoolchildren. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/10/npull10.xml
Tom Rees, how do you deal with the situation where there are tribes who esteem cheating and dishonesty as the utmost morality? I forget the name of the tribe, but I read about this one that had a completely opposite set of moral values. So is this right for them, since it’s their “evolutionay heritage?” If it is wrong to cheat in all cases, why? I agree that it disrupts harmony in the community IN OUR CULTURE, but when cheating and murder are the peak of behavior in a tribal community, it would disrupt harmony to go against that value system. So, what makes it wrong, and what is the atheist foundation for such a belief? And if it isn’t wrong, how can any moral position be anything more than just a passing communal value? And what if some people have evolved beyond such values? What right do you have to tell them that they are wrong and your values are right, just because you might have more people who agree with you? Isn’t this merely an argument ad populum, a tyranny of the majority, if you will?
Tom Rees said: “Thainamu and Darius want to know how atheists can be moral. Well, the source of morality is our need to live together in harmony.”
Absolutely. I cringe when people bring up the ‘atheists can have no morals’ canard. It’s simply not true. Atheists draw their morals and ethics from non-religious sources, but that doesn’t make them invalid or non-existent. The fact that atheists don’t justify their morals by appealing to God doesn’t mean atheists believe morals are arbitrary or subjective.
For example: Ayn Rand invented a whole system of ethics called Objectivism, which (she claims) relies on no subjective or relative claims. The ethical principles of Objectivism are just as absolute (according to that system) as the commandments handed down by God. Ayn Rand is just one example of an atheist who believes in absolute, objective morality.
I don’t think my views on morality would change much if I were an atheist rather than a Christian. I would still believe in an objective right and wrong. Atheism doesn’t mean moral relativism.
Jew, go on Christianity Today and read the debate between Wilson and Hitchens… atheism necessarily means moral relativism.
“I don’t think my views on morality would change much if I were an atheist rather than a Christian.”
No offense intended here, but that is the main reason why so many people can’t tell a Christian from a non-Christian, because of this belief that morality comes from inside us (yet somehow is still objective) instead of an absolute diety. I agree that we do inherently know right from wrong (Genesis and other Biblical texts back this up, and C.S. Lewis has written on this subject), but this is due to the knowledge given to us by God an