Comments on: Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 3 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/ Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:21:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Colin Elliott http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2766 Colin Elliott Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:34:25 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2766 That's so funny - I was totally on board with these guys and then they pull out the fatalism. It'd be like Ron Paul running the way he has this whole time and then pulling out and endorsing Rudy Giuliani. It sounds like I will just have to read this book for myself. Again, I have never had anything other than the "traditional view" presented to me and I have seen the same shortcomings with it that the authors identify. However, I am still a little ignorant on the issue. Yet I am pretty well informed on fatalism and I find it pretty problematic. In fact, I would think that fatalism and their "wisdom view" are incompatible, and I don't understand how they can marry the two philosophically. That’s so funny - I was totally on board with these guys and then they pull out the fatalism. It’d be like Ron Paul running the way he has this whole time and then pulling out and endorsing Rudy Giuliani.

It sounds like I will just have to read this book for myself. Again, I have never had anything other than the “traditional view” presented to me and I have seen the same shortcomings with it that the authors identify. However, I am still a little ignorant on the issue.

Yet I am pretty well informed on fatalism and I find it pretty problematic. In fact, I would think that fatalism and their “wisdom view” are incompatible, and I don’t understand how they can marry the two philosophically.

]]> By: Chris Austere http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2767 Chris Austere Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:13:41 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2767 "Since the authors believe that there isn’t an individual will of God as expressed in the traditional view, a major part of their focus is on God’s moral will. God’s moral will is the ethical structure upon which we are to base our lives." How would the author's explain, for example, Jeremiah's revelation about being selected as a prophet before he was formed in the womb? Paul made a similar corresponding statement about his ministry in the New Testament. It seems obvious to me that there was an individual will for these men's lives, though not apart from "spiritual expediency" or God's "moral will." Case in point: "For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!" (I Corinthians 9:16) Paul is speaking of the grace given to him as an apostle, but makes the point that his obedience to the call is a moral decision. I personally have never made a distinction between the grace God has given me (or his individual will for me if you prefer), and his moral will. Such distinctions unnecessarily micromanage God's will. I mean, is it right to be something that you are not? If not, then the question of whether the subject is moral or having to do with spiritual expediency becomes irrelevant. “Since the authors believe that there isn’t an individual will of God as expressed in the traditional view, a major part of their focus is on God’s moral will. God’s moral will is the ethical structure upon which we are to base our lives.”

How would the author’s explain, for example, Jeremiah’s revelation about being selected as a prophet before he was formed in the womb? Paul made a similar corresponding statement about his ministry in the New Testament. It seems obvious to me that there was an individual will for these men’s lives, though not apart from “spiritual expediency” or God’s “moral will.” Case in point:

“For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!” (I Corinthians 9:16)

Paul is speaking of the grace given to him as an apostle, but makes the point that his obedience to the call is a moral decision. I personally have never made a distinction between the grace God has given me (or his individual will for me if you prefer), and his moral will. Such distinctions unnecessarily micromanage God’s will. I mean, is it right to be something that you are not? If not, then the question of whether the subject is moral or having to do with spiritual expediency becomes irrelevant.

]]> By: Chris Austere http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2768 Chris Austere Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:28:54 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2768 Although I haven't read this book, and seem to disagree with it on a number of points, I will say that some of the arguments seem quite plausible. For instance, I believe the concept of spiritual expediency is a good place to start if and when God's will is not explicitly revealed. Certainly there is liberty in Christ, and we should not have the preconceived notion that God wants to dictate our every move just for the sake of doing it. I don't sweat most day-to-day decisions, but in those cases where others are affected and there is a possibility of it affecting the course I should be on, I do seek God's wisdom and guidance. Jasen, I'm interested in knowing the authors' explanation of this passage as I'm sure it must be covered in the book: 14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away. 15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that (James 4:14,15). Although I haven’t read this book, and seem to disagree with it on a number of points, I will say that some of the arguments seem quite plausible. For instance, I believe the concept of spiritual expediency is a good place to start if and when God’s will is not explicitly revealed. Certainly there is liberty in Christ, and we should not have the preconceived notion that God wants to dictate our every move just for the sake of doing it. I don’t sweat most day-to-day decisions, but in those cases where others are affected and there is a possibility of it affecting the course I should be on, I do seek God’s wisdom and guidance.

Jasen, I’m interested in knowing the authors’ explanation of this passage as I’m sure it must be covered in the book:

14Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

15For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that (James 4:14,15).

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2769 Jasen Tracy Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:54:25 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2769 The book mentions that God did call certain people to vocations in the Old Testament, such as the prophets, priests, and kings. But there is nothing to suggest that this was the norm for everyone. Note that all of these were "called" by supernatural means - God directly told Moses to set up the priesthood, Kings and Prophets were appointed by prophets who had heard directly from God - and not by some means of human discernment to discover what God's will was. Paul is similar - God appointed him to be an apostle through supernatural means. But that wasn't normal. When the Jerusalem church needed deacons they simply picked good men instead of seeking who it was God's will to make deacons. If they followed the traditional view, Paul and Barnabas would have sought God's will over whether or not to take John Mark with them instead of just coming into a sharp disagreement over it. They're simply aren't examples of people discovering "God's individual will" for themselves through means other than the direct supernatural. Basically, unless you get a literal "road to Damascus experience" or a visit from an Angel, or some other direct supernatural experience, you can safely assume that God does not have a perfect individual will for you in the sense the traditional view teaches. The book mentions that God did call certain people to vocations in the Old Testament, such as the prophets, priests, and kings. But there is nothing to suggest that this was the norm for everyone. Note that all of these were “called” by supernatural means - God directly told Moses to set up the priesthood, Kings and Prophets were appointed by prophets who had heard directly from God - and not by some means of human discernment to discover what God’s will was.

Paul is similar - God appointed him to be an apostle through supernatural means. But that wasn’t normal. When the Jerusalem church needed deacons they simply picked good men instead of seeking who it was God’s will to make deacons. If they followed the traditional view, Paul and Barnabas would have sought God’s will over whether or not to take John Mark with them instead of just coming into a sharp disagreement over it.

They’re simply aren’t examples of people discovering “God’s individual will” for themselves through means other than the direct supernatural. Basically, unless you get a literal “road to Damascus experience” or a visit from an Angel, or some other direct supernatural experience, you can safely assume that God does not have a perfect individual will for you in the sense the traditional view teaches.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2770 Jasen Tracy Mon, 26 Nov 2007 23:51:48 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2770 The book does discuss James 4 in the chapters on God's sovereignty. The problem is not that they made plans (this is affirmed later in the passage), but that they were boasting of their ability and not considering that it is God who will decide what happens. The book does discuss James 4 in the chapters on God’s sovereignty. The problem is not that they made plans (this is affirmed later in the passage), but that they were boasting of their ability and not considering that it is God who will decide what happens.

]]> By: Chris Austere http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2773 Chris Austere Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:22:08 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2773 I will concede that the Road to Damascus experience is not the norm. But Paul did not receive the full revelation of his ministry during this experience. He got further insight and direction by the Spirit in Acts 13, as did Barnabas. And we don't have any record of Barnabas having a Road to Damascus experience prior to this event. And yes, it is most likely that this further direction for their lives and ministries came about by way of a prophecy or a tongue with interpretation. But how would Paul or Barnabas know that the prophecy (we'll assume) was correct? Certainly we shouldn't suggest, as New Testament believers who have received the Spirit of Truth, that they or we should wholeheartedly follow the instructions given through someone else. There had to be a witness of the Spirit within themselves that confirmed that it was right to do what was said by way of prophecy. That something is the inner witness. I will concede that the Road to Damascus experience is not the norm. But Paul did not receive the full revelation of his ministry during this experience. He got further insight and direction by the Spirit in Acts 13, as did Barnabas. And we don’t have any record of Barnabas having a Road to Damascus experience prior to this event. And yes, it is most likely that this further direction for their lives and ministries came about by way of a prophecy or a tongue with interpretation. But how would Paul or Barnabas know that the prophecy (we’ll assume) was correct? Certainly we shouldn’t suggest, as New Testament believers who have received the Spirit of Truth, that they or we should wholeheartedly follow the instructions given through someone else. There had to be a witness of the Spirit within themselves that confirmed that it was right to do what was said by way of prophecy. That something is the inner witness.

]]> By: Chris Austere http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2774 Chris Austere Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:26:23 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-2774 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him" (I John 2:27). “But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him” (I John 2:27).

]]> By: Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 2 at Zeal For Truth http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-4402 Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 2 at Zeal For Truth Wed, 06 Feb 2008 17:42:11 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-3/#comment-4402 [...] Next week: The Wisdom View Explained [...] […] Next week: The Wisdom View Explained […]

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