Comments on: Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 1 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/ Wed, 07 Jan 2009 03:15:19 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Jew http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2549 Jew Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:03:00 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2549 So would the traditional view say that God has a plan for every decision we make? In other words, when Friesen was deciding which university to attend, the traditional view would say that one university was the right decision and the other was the wrong decision. I've never believed that God's will works like that. If I did, I would be paralyzed into inaction for fear of making the wrong choice. In the absence of any blatant divine revelation, I've always just assumed that I could use my brain and figure things out, and that none of the options were wrong or contrary to God's will. That's what people do for most decisions anyway, even if they believe in the traditional view of God's will. So would the traditional view say that God has a plan for every decision we make? In other words, when Friesen was deciding which university to attend, the traditional view would say that one university was the right decision and the other was the wrong decision.

I’ve never believed that God’s will works like that. If I did, I would be paralyzed into inaction for fear of making the wrong choice. In the absence of any blatant divine revelation, I’ve always just assumed that I could use my brain and figure things out, and that none of the options were wrong or contrary to God’s will. That’s what people do for most decisions anyway, even if they believe in the traditional view of God’s will.

]]> By: thainamu http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2551 thainamu Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:21:40 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2551 Perhaps I'm cheating by commenting, since I'm reading Jasen's draft ahead of time and know what further things he will be covering. But also, I read this book about 100 years ago and personally found it to be very liberating in how I viewed God's relationship with me. Those of us who were schooled in "the traditional view" more or less believed that, looking backwards, there really was a "perfect will of God" when it came to the decision of whether you should wear black or brown socks today. Lots of people think that, as I used to, even if Jew never did. Of course, the decision about socks is silly, but when it comes to something like what university to attend, it feels like the stakes are much greater, so we want God's help to make that decision. We can envision that our lives would be quite different if we go to Univ A vs. Uviv B. This is why I used to think that there was only one right person to marry. (And having been happily married for 30 years, it is easy to think I found the "right" person and glad I didn't marry any of those other guys.) The trick here is really understanding what God's moral will is, and then realizing that not every decision in life is of that type. Perhaps I’m cheating by commenting, since I’m reading Jasen’s draft ahead of time and know what further things he will be covering.

But also, I read this book about 100 years ago and personally found it to be very liberating in how I viewed God’s relationship with me.

Those of us who were schooled in “the traditional view” more or less believed that, looking backwards, there really was a “perfect will of God” when it came to the decision of whether you should wear black or brown socks today. Lots of people think that, as I used to, even if Jew never did.

Of course, the decision about socks is silly, but when it comes to something like what university to attend, it feels like the stakes are much greater, so we want God’s help to make that decision. We can envision that our lives would be quite different if we go to Univ A vs. Uviv B. This is why I used to think that there was only one right person to marry. (And having been happily married for 30 years, it is easy to think I found the “right” person and glad I didn’t marry any of those other guys.)

The trick here is really understanding what God’s moral will is, and then realizing that not every decision in life is of that type.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2552 Darius Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:33:02 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2552 If it happens, can't you say that it was God's will? For example, say you chose the "wrong" college. How is this "wrong"? After all, God doesn't allow something to occur outside of His will. It may not have been the (humanly-speaking) wise choice, but perhaps God let you make that choice so that you could grow or learn a lesson. Likewise, there is one person that you are to marry (if you're to marry at all). However, this person may not turn out to be (humanly-speaking) your perfect match, but rather what God allows because your heart is stubborn and/or to show you something and help you mature. Even an imperfect marriage teaches one a lot. The view that God has one spouse in mind for each person AND that spouse is going to be perfect for you in every way and if your current partner is not perfect for you, you've picked the wrong spouse is incorrect. If it happens, can’t you say that it was God’s will? For example, say you chose the “wrong” college. How is this “wrong”? After all, God doesn’t allow something to occur outside of His will. It may not have been the (humanly-speaking) wise choice, but perhaps God let you make that choice so that you could grow or learn a lesson.

Likewise, there is one person that you are to marry (if you’re to marry at all). However, this person may not turn out to be (humanly-speaking) your perfect match, but rather what God allows because your heart is stubborn and/or to show you something and help you mature. Even an imperfect marriage teaches one a lot. The view that God has one spouse in mind for each person AND that spouse is going to be perfect for you in every way and if your current partner is not perfect for you, you’ve picked the wrong spouse is incorrect.

]]> By: Jew http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2553 Jew Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:47:45 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2553 Darius said: <i>For example, say you chose the “wrong” college. How is this “wrong”?</i> It's wrong in that it's a sin. God wanted you to go one place, but you went elsewhere. Your action was contrary to God's perfect plan, and therefore is an act of sin. God permits sin, and he can work through it to help you grow, but that doesn't mean it's right or good. Darius said: For example, say you chose the “wrong” college. How is this “wrong”?

It’s wrong in that it’s a sin. God wanted you to go one place, but you went elsewhere. Your action was contrary to God’s perfect plan, and therefore is an act of sin. God permits sin, and he can work through it to help you grow, but that doesn’t mean it’s right or good.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2554 Darius Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:51:57 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2554 Choosing the wrong college is not a sin, unless God clearly tells you otherwise. Are you saying it's a sin or that it's the traditional view? I didn't notice the traditional view defined in this way, at least in the book/article. Choosing the wrong college is not a sin, unless God clearly tells you otherwise. Are you saying it’s a sin or that it’s the traditional view? I didn’t notice the traditional view defined in this way, at least in the book/article.

]]> By: Jew http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2555 Jew Mon, 12 Nov 2007 17:54:17 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2555 I'm saying that could be one interpretation of the traditional view. After all, if God has a perfect plan, and you don't follow it, that's disobeying God. I imagine that nobody couches it in those terms, because when you come right out and say it, it's ridiculous. I’m saying that could be one interpretation of the traditional view. After all, if God has a perfect plan, and you don’t follow it, that’s disobeying God. I imagine that nobody couches it in those terms, because when you come right out and say it, it’s ridiculous.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2561 Jasen Tracy Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:05:34 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2561 Jew, you understanding of the book's presentation of the traditional view is correct. Making the wrong decision wasn't called a sin directly, but it is being outside of God's perfect will for your life (which isn't what you want). If God planned for you to marry Sue and you married Sally than you're pretty much outside God's perfect will for you for the rest of your life. Also, it's strongly suspected that if you can't figure out what God's will is for you it is because some sin in your life is preventing you from doing so. This might sound a bit extreme, but I have known I few people who would hold to this "traditional view." And I've known many people who hold to a less extreme version of it. Jew, you understanding of the book’s presentation of the traditional view is correct. Making the wrong decision wasn’t called a sin directly, but it is being outside of God’s perfect will for your life (which isn’t what you want). If God planned for you to marry Sue and you married Sally than you’re pretty much outside God’s perfect will for you for the rest of your life.

Also, it’s strongly suspected that if you can’t figure out what God’s will is for you it is because some sin in your life is preventing you from doing so.

This might sound a bit extreme, but I have known I few people who would hold to this “traditional view.” And I’ve known many people who hold to a less extreme version of it.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2563 Darius Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:22:23 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2563 If only a few people hold to the traditional view, then is it really all that "traditional?" Furthermore, if you marry Sally, how do you know that is outside of God's will? Even if the marriage sours, is it necessarily outside of His will? Since no human knows the answer to those questions (at least in this life), then how could one call it a sin? Obviously, if it goes against Scripture or some other clear sign from God to marry Sally, then yes, it is sin. But if all signs point to "Yes" but God really meant "No," how is one to know that? The traditional view (as outlined above) would seem to be accurate and Scriptural, but a twisted view of it (like assuming God's will on a matter without any evidence to back up that assumption) is not. If only a few people hold to the traditional view, then is it really all that “traditional?”

Furthermore, if you marry Sally, how do you know that is outside of God’s will? Even if the marriage sours, is it necessarily outside of His will? Since no human knows the answer to those questions (at least in this life), then how could one call it a sin? Obviously, if it goes against Scripture or some other clear sign from God to marry Sally, then yes, it is sin. But if all signs point to “Yes” but God really meant “No,” how is one to know that? The traditional view (as outlined above) would seem to be accurate and Scriptural, but a twisted view of it (like assuming God’s will on a matter without any evidence to back up that assumption) is not.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2564 Jasen Tracy Mon, 12 Nov 2007 22:54:39 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2564 What I meant by "less extreme," view, which many people do believe, is people who hold to these ideas in theory, but in practice only occasionally use it. They may not ask God which socks to wear, but they will spend an immense amount of effort trying to discern God's leading rather or not the should get married/become a missionary/other "really important" thing. So it can be called the "traditional view" (for American Evangelicals). Also, I think the authors wanted a polite name for it. Much of the rest of what you said will be addressed next week. What I meant by “less extreme,” view, which many people do believe, is people who hold to these ideas in theory, but in practice only occasionally use it. They may not ask God which socks to wear, but they will spend an immense amount of effort trying to discern God’s leading rather or not the should get married/become a missionary/other “really important” thing. So it can be called the “traditional view” (for American Evangelicals). Also, I think the authors wanted a polite name for it.

Much of the rest of what you said will be addressed next week.

]]> By: thainamu http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2566 thainamu Mon, 12 Nov 2007 23:06:21 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2566 "If God planned for you to marry Sue and you married Sally than you’re pretty much outside God’s perfect will for you for the rest of your life." One variation on this that I've heard is that if you make a mistake like this, then you repent or start to later follow the traditional thinking and listen better to God, then from that point on God can give you a new "perfect will." "Even if the marriage sours, is it necessarily outside of His will? " Once you're married, it makes no difference if the marriage sours, since God's moral will then comes into play. God's moral will always trumps any decision in our individual lives we are faced with. God's moral will is against divorce so no matter the feelings, it is God's will to remain married. (Now if adultery is part of the picture, the rules change, but that's off topic at the moment.) “If God planned for you to marry Sue and you married Sally than you’re pretty much outside God’s perfect will for you for the rest of your life.”
One variation on this that I’ve heard is that if you make a mistake like this, then you repent or start to later follow the traditional thinking and listen better to God, then from that point on God can give you a new “perfect will.”

“Even if the marriage sours, is it necessarily outside of His will? ”
Once you’re married, it makes no difference if the marriage sours, since God’s moral will then comes into play. God’s moral will always trumps any decision in our individual lives we are faced with. God’s moral will is against divorce so no matter the feelings, it is God’s will to remain married. (Now if adultery is part of the picture, the rules change, but that’s off topic at the moment.)

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2570 Darius Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:18:35 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2570 I'm just wondering how one discerns (outside of the traditional view) if a marriage is God's will in the past tense? Just because it goes sour doesn't make it against God's will, since God uses bad circumstances for His will. I’m just wondering how one discerns (outside of the traditional view) if a marriage is God’s will in the past tense? Just because it goes sour doesn’t make it against God’s will, since God uses bad circumstances for His will.

]]> By: thainamu http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2572 thainamu Tue, 13 Nov 2007 00:46:33 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2572 Let's change the example for a minute (because marriage is a moral issue, or at least staying married is). Let's say you drive home from work every evening. There are two ways to get home, route A and route B. One day you take route B home and you get hit by a drunk driver who breaks your leg and ruins your car. At that point you think, I wish I had taken route A. So which was God's will--for you to take route A or route B? The answer is, neither. OR both. Or, it doesn't matter, it's a moot point. That's because, all else being equal, there is no moral right or wrong in taking either route. If God wanted to use a broken leg to teach you something, He would see to it that you got a broken leg regardless which route you took. It is the same with marriage. If God wants to use "sourness" in marriage to accomplish something in a person's life, he will do so no matter who they are married to. (On the other hand, if the "sourness" is caused by sin of some kind in the marriage, that is relevant to God's moral will, which we know about from scripture, and we are instructed to do something about it.) Let’s change the example for a minute (because marriage is a moral issue, or at least staying married is).

Let’s say you drive home from work every evening. There are two ways to get home, route A and route B. One day you take route B home and you get hit by a drunk driver who breaks your leg and ruins your car. At that point you think, I wish I had taken route A.

So which was God’s will–for you to take route A or route B?

The answer is, neither. OR both. Or, it doesn’t matter, it’s a moot point. That’s because, all else being equal, there is no moral right or wrong in taking either route. If God wanted to use a broken leg to teach you something, He would see to it that you got a broken leg regardless which route you took.

It is the same with marriage. If God wants to use “sourness” in marriage to accomplish something in a person’s life, he will do so no matter who they are married to. (On the other hand, if the “sourness” is caused by sin of some kind in the marriage, that is relevant to God’s moral will, which we know about from scripture, and we are instructed to do something about it.)

]]> By: Robert http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2575 Robert Tue, 13 Nov 2007 03:36:18 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2575 Multnomah School of the Bible has been changed to: Multnomah Bible College for many years now. www.multnomah.edu Multnomah School of the Bible has been changed to:

Multnomah Bible College for many years now.

www.multnomah.edu

]]> By: Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 2 at Zeal For Truth http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2671 Book Review: Decision Making & the Will of God - Part 2 at Zeal For Truth Mon, 19 Nov 2007 16:05:09 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-2671 [...] & the Will of God, Garry Friesen and J. Robin Maxson stop the fictional seminar form of the first part and proceed in a more typical fashion. The book contains many excellent summarization areas, which [...] […] & the Will of God, Garry Friesen and J. Robin Maxson stop the fictional seminar form of the first part and proceed in a more typical fashion. The book contains many excellent summarization areas, which […]

]]> By: The What, Who, How and Why of Evangelism at Zeal For Truth http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-4392 The What, Who, How and Why of Evangelism at Zeal For Truth Wed, 06 Feb 2008 16:45:35 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-4392 [...] study of the bible, and also my supplementary reading (which right now is the [so far] excellent Decision Making and the Will of God) a few concepts have come together and informed my view on [...] […] study of the bible, and also my supplementary reading (which right now is the [so far] excellent Decision Making and the Will of God) a few concepts have come together and informed my view on […]

]]> By: Wisdom Applied, Circumstances Denied at Zeal For Truth http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-4714 Wisdom Applied, Circumstances Denied at Zeal For Truth Thu, 14 Feb 2008 16:31:22 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/11/book-review-decision-making-the-will-of-god-part-1/#comment-4714 [...] Godly wisdom. As I go through the book “Decision Making and the Will of God” (reviewed here), I find that the basic view of the book has much wider applications than merely those which the [...] […] Godly wisdom. As I go through the book “Decision Making and the Will of God” (reviewed here), I find that the basic view of the book has much wider applications than merely those which the […]

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