Some of this “progress” is actual progress, though, of the increasing-individual-freedom kind. I get to be a contributing member of society, and be financially stable, all my own little self, without depending on some guy wanting to marry me or a hefty inheritance from rich parents. I think this is relatively awesome, and feminism has had some part to play in this.

Guess what though, Ardith? You can do that! You don’t need a career to do it, and you can do it even if you’re married. I am a contributing member of society and I am a stay-at-home mom of 2 kids under the age of 4. I do all the work for them that a daycare worker would be doing if I had a career, and I’m doing a better job of it too. Am I contributing less to society than she is, simply because I’m not earning cash for doing it? My hours are sure longer than hers! lol I also do all the work that a Merry Maid would be doing to my home if I was working and needed to hire a maid. I am a vital part of the economy of 1 family. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. It’s true! As for financially stable, I can do that from home as well. There are many jobs a woman can do from her home. Did you know that you can earn over $100,000 per year by helping other women sell Avon? Please don’t make the mistake of thinking that the only way you can be a valuable member of society is by having a career. It’s not true!

As for being dependent on a man, it’s a two-way street. I couldn’t get by without my husband’s income. But he depends on me too. He couldn’t get by if I wasn’t here to cook, clean, manage our home, and raise our children. He would be up a creek without a paddle. We depend on each other. And it’s not degrading, as the feminists might have you think! It is liberating, wonderful, romantic even. We cherish each other and there’s no feeling like it.

See, here’s the thing: I haven’t yet met anyone I have any desire to marry.

All I was trying to point out is that despite that fact, it’s possible for me to take care of myself and can even help out others (say, my family) should they fall into hard times or something.

That would be a lot harder if I couldn’t get an education or own property.

In fact, I may not ever marry, for all I know. Not out of some hatred of marriage or ‘fear of living a degraded life’ or some such. It’s just a possibility that I may end up not ever getting married. Or I might get married and lose my husband in a horrific car accident. I just can’t know. In the end, I’m safer and happier knowing I can take care of myself.

But I really, really wasn’t trying to put down anybody who’s married, or say that marriage is not wonderful in its own way.

By the way, the right to employment was not something gained for women by feminist. Poor women have always had to work. This was true in my own family. Due to an abusive, drunken husband, my grandmother had to support her children by herself. She worked various jobs including farm work, assembly line worker, and housemaid. This was in the forties, fifties and sixties. Her own mother-my great grandmother-was a midwife, farmer’s wife and occasional mill worker. My great, great grandmother was also a midwife and herbalist who was politely called, ‘Dr.’ because she was often the closest medical care giver in her rural community.

As a contrast, both my wonderful husband and I love our jobs. We have both decided that we’d rather have a more modest income and be satisfied with what we do for a living. Never once have we had the arguments, the strife that my parents experienced. We come home, laugh about our days, and our coworkers, and have a nice night together, usually while I do the laundry, dust, etc.

It’s not women in the workplace as far as I’m concerned, it’s people in the wrong workplace. We have traded money for happiness, and it has ruined our homelives in general.

At least, that is my humble opinion.

Shannan, you made a good point, but you worded it such as is the modern day, ‘feministic’ manner. You gave no option outside the workplace. Your statement assumes all women would find happiness within the workplace rather that with their children.

While bearing their children, (both theirs and the children’s fathers) mothers cannot help but develop a strong, irreplaceable bond with them. Even if never intended, nor planned, this bond is often where their hearts dwell. Society, however, has and continues to endoctrine young women and girls that this ‘bond’ is merely a result of the ‘oppressions’ of males on them. That men have made them to ‘believe’ they want to be with their children. When in reality they want to be in the workplace.

Secondly, any resentment you have against your mother does not contest my point. The bond I spoke of is that between the “innocent, ignorant” child and his mother. If your mother did every thing she could to wedge that bond, then that is another topic. This bond I speak of is the default bond. No child hates his mother by birth. However, it is not uncommon for children to be startled or uncomfortable with others. Even their own fathers. A bond between a child and others must tighten or loosen AFTER birth. A bond between a child and his mother only tightens BEFORE birth.

Thirdly, your ‘independence’, (despite the urge you have to boast of it) is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Children in both bonded and loose homes can grow to be strong and independent. However, it is a statistical fact that children mimic the behavior of their parents. From smoking, to eating, to working, to abuse, to divorce, to faith, etc… Although you have made it a point to be happy whereas your parents were not, your’s is the rare case. You cannot live in a bubble where you think your outcome MUST be the norm. Your outcome is anything but.

However, if I may, the modern ‘workplace’ isn’t natural for males nor females. Even further, without having to refer to any religion, it is not natural for children to be without their mothers. Looking throughout all nature, (with few exceptions such as sea horses) mothers play a vital, crucial, irreplaceable role in the social lives of children. Whereas fathers’ role, though arguable as important, tend to be more monetary and abstract. Even within most peculiar special societies, (such as that of hyenas) where the female dominates, mothers still hold dear to their roles as nurturers of their young.

For this reason, I struggle to comprehend how even the non-religious cannot perceive the mother’s vital role in the social lives of children. Secularists most often claim to respect science above religion. Yet, science bares witness of the social roles of males and females as boldly and consistently as any religion and/or faith.

I suppose I do hold an ‘abnormal’ view on motherhood, which I’m sure will change when/ if I ever have children. I do currently have a stepdaughter and I see some difference in myself becauseof it.

I would like to make clear that I really am enjoying this conversation. (I promise I’m not trolling) I enjoy things like this because they broaden one’s view, for better or worse

I get what you’re saying about leaving children in the care of strangers. I believe it’s best for children to be cared for and raised by the family, not by hired helpers. On the other hand, I think it’s quite natural for one parent to work outside the home. And throughout human history that has been a necessity, has it not?

Jew, I understand your point that many species have practices that should not be considered positive examples to us. All the more, it is shameful when beastly, instinctive animals still are more cautious with their young than us.

Man Id Unknown: “Even these same cannibalistic animals do not have funded, organized baby killing.”

That’s because they’re animals. They can’t fund anything because they’re too stupid to invent money. They’re too stupid to organize themselves. Some of them are even stupid enough to eat their own poo.

Yes, these animals, (compared to humans, perhaps) are ’stupid’. However, that is my point. Why isn’t this point so obvious? These “stupid” beasts are more loyal to their children than many of us “intelligent” beings.

It is so typical for those who are always claiming science is superior to religion/faith to act so ignorant of scientific studies of nature when convenient. Anyone who has a minute knowledge of the animal kingdom would see a consistent pattern in male and female roles. As I mentioned in another comment, even in certain animal societies where the females dominate, (such as hyena and various primates) the females are still the dominant caregivers. So even if one is the most anti-religious, secularist, atheistic one can possibly be, he would have to reason “Hmmm, if after billions of years amongst thousands of species there are highly consistent male and female roles, there must be a wisdom, logic, or benefit behind this.”

As for the natural/ unnatural argument regarding child rearing that has been introduced, I tend to think that humans over-nuture their young. After a point a child is not helpless, can take care of themselves to a point, and can be ‘left with a stranger’ and be perfectly fine. We hang on to our young much longer than other species do, rather than espousing the ‘you can do it yourself, so do it yourself, here, let me push you out of the nest now’ idea of parenting.

And as far as I’m concerned (here comes the feminist in me) we still over-emphasize gender roles. Many dads are better parents than mothers.

You seem to be too naive of the ’strangers’ in this world, and the speed at which children mature. This is why STDs, teen pregnancy, drug use, rape, and single mothers are at historical highs. The youth need the experience of the elder. The notion that “children can fend for themselves younger than most think” has greatly been disproved over the last 40/50 years. Most just keep defending this careless, ridiculous notion, because the only other alternative is more time minding one’s own children. GOD forbid that should happen.

Lastly, your views on parenting are still on the feministic mentality of “men vs women”. Which you call “gender roles”. When did parenting stop being about the child? Childish “boy vs girl” competitions should stay in elementary school. When it comes to parenting, children ought to be the focus of all discussions. Parenting shouldn’t revolve around the parents’ careers, goals, or happiness, but the child’s needs and happiness.

The workplace has become more about over-reaching than necessity.

Yes, it’s a real shame that the workplace has become so complicated and over-reaching that we now have much greater choice of work and opportunity to use our brains at our jobs.

As for my parenting ideals, that is why children are a very very distant goal for my husband and myself (with the exception of his 16yr old daughter, who was a bit of an “oops” when he was 16) But I will work when I have children, and they will be in daycare. Then in public schools, I think that it’s very important for children to get an idea of what the world is like outside their own universe. Our intent with my step-girl is to make sure she knows how much there is, to introduce her to diversity, to make sure she knows that people of other races, religions and sexualities are not to be feared or hated. I think the best way to do that is to send the child out.

And I suppose I do have some feminist leanings, but the more I see in this world, the less desire I have to be stuffed into one of those boxes which women have been rotting in for centuries because people are trying to hold to some crazy ideal that we should be at home.

I’m an old woman, with grown kids, and I’d have to say that I am probably the kind of person you are thinking of. (Well, maybe not entirely, since I did put my preschoolers in the daycare provided at my workplace for short stretches. And then, they did go to public schools. And they did go to university out of state.) But I was (and really, still am) very involved in my kids’ lives. I was a very mothering mother, always up at their schools, always checking their homework, always talking to them whether they liked it or not. Oh the other hand, I did try to encourage them to be responsible by “forcing” them to get part time jobs cleaning toilets, to do their own laundry, to learn how to speak to other adults, etc. I tried to help them become independent, but at no point did I really push them out of the nest.

But my point–sorry, I’m blathering–is that I did hang on to my kids for as long as I really could, but I did it because I just plain like them so much. Maybe lower animals aren’t quite as fond of their offspring once they grow up.

Women need to be told what to do without discussion. Reasoning with them is a waste of time. Men need to pick from the small group of women left who have not been spoiled by feminism, who actually listen to and respect men. Men have to stop being cowardly and selfish and act like real men with moral authority.

Yes, ML, the Jews are destroying us. They’ve stolen our money(central bank), corrupted our women and, now that we are weak, race mixing will finish us off. But at least we know why, unlike most lemmings.