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	<title>Comments on: Tragedy and Faith</title>
	<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:44:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-752</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-752</guid>
					<description>That's all great, but what's the point of defining tragic hero, aesthetic hero, and knight of faith? I can understand the knight of faith, but the aesthetic hero is more literary than philosophical. Isn't the defining characteristic of an aesthetic hero the fact that his opposition arises not from the ethical dilemma, but from some other external force? (Which makes good literature but dull philosophy.) If so, how does Agamemnon qualify as an aesthetic hero? His dilemma is ethical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s all great, but what&#8217;s the point of defining tragic hero, aesthetic hero, and knight of faith? I can understand the knight of faith, but the aesthetic hero is more literary than philosophical. Isn&#8217;t the defining characteristic of an aesthetic hero the fact that his opposition arises not from the ethical dilemma, but from some other external force? (Which makes good literature but dull philosophy.) If so, how does Agamemnon qualify as an aesthetic hero? His dilemma is ethical.</p>
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		<title>By: Darius</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-754</link>
		<author>Darius</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:18:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-754</guid>
					<description>The Agamemnon story is similar to the story of Saul and Jonathan after Jonathan ate honey that Saul had cursed.  Saul nearly had to execute him to hold up his oath to God, but Saul's men protected Jonathan.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Agamemnon story is similar to the story of Saul and Jonathan after Jonathan ate honey that Saul had cursed.  Saul nearly had to execute him to hold up his oath to God, but Saul&#8217;s men protected Jonathan.</p>
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		<title>By: Colin Elliott</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-756</link>
		<author>Colin Elliott</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Aug 2007 22:09:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-756</guid>
					<description>Thanks a bunch for the summary! I can't even say how helpful this is.

&lt;i&gt;If there is, then it is something irrational, illogical, and yet supersedes the universal.&lt;/i&gt;

This is scary to me, but at the same time I must acknowledge it to be accurate. My desire to be 100% consistent and rational reconciles this by declaring that what supersedes the universal ethic may not be illogical or irrational, but simply beyond what is now summed up as rational or logical. This obviously gets into tricky "hidden" or "mystery" logic and opens up faith to go off into quite a few places that contradict this. At the same time, I simply cannot think of a better way to reconcile faith with rationality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a bunch for the summary! I can&#8217;t even say how helpful this is.</p>
<p><i>If there is, then it is something irrational, illogical, and yet supersedes the universal.</i></p>
<p>This is scary to me, but at the same time I must acknowledge it to be accurate. My desire to be 100% consistent and rational reconciles this by declaring that what supersedes the universal ethic may not be illogical or irrational, but simply beyond what is now summed up as rational or logical. This obviously gets into tricky &#8220;hidden&#8221; or &#8220;mystery&#8221; logic and opens up faith to go off into quite a few places that contradict this. At the same time, I simply cannot think of a better way to reconcile faith with rationality.</p>
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		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-758</link>
		<author>cchrisr</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:15:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-758</guid>
					<description>Jew, as I mentioned in the post, &lt;i&gt;These are characters in the sense of how a role is to be played, as if Kierkegaard is a stage director and everyone is an actor.&lt;/i&gt;  Kierkegaard is thinking in those very terms and the "philosophical" part is almost a by-product.  There's a reason why he wrote all of his works pseudonymously (this one by Johannes Silentio); Kierkegaard was thinking in terms of characters, not of people.  The aesthetic hero's dilemma may arise from outside forces, but that doesn't exclude the dilemma from being an ethical one.  It could be argued that the events leading up to Spock's decision to fix the warp drive (and subsequently, kill himself) was out of Spock's hands, yet his dilemma was still an ethical one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jew, as I mentioned in the post, <i>These are characters in the sense of how a role is to be played, as if Kierkegaard is a stage director and everyone is an actor.</i>  Kierkegaard is thinking in those very terms and the &#8220;philosophical&#8221; part is almost a by-product.  There&#8217;s a reason why he wrote all of his works pseudonymously (this one by Johannes Silentio); Kierkegaard was thinking in terms of characters, not of people.  The aesthetic hero&#8217;s dilemma may arise from outside forces, but that doesn&#8217;t exclude the dilemma from being an ethical one.  It could be argued that the events leading up to Spock&#8217;s decision to fix the warp drive (and subsequently, kill himself) was out of Spock&#8217;s hands, yet his dilemma was still an ethical one.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-759</link>
		<author>Bryan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 02:30:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-759</guid>
					<description>Kierkegaard was the person I liked reading in my existentialism class.  I should really read more of him...if only I had more time!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kierkegaard was the person I liked reading in my existentialism class.  I should really read more of him&#8230;if only I had more time!</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-760</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-760</guid>
					<description>OK, if we view these as roles in a stage production, I can see the importance of the aesthetic hero. (I don't think we can learn much from an aesthetic hero, though.)

But what I &lt;i&gt;really&lt;/i&gt; don't understand is why Kierkegaard insists the Knight of Faith be unable to talk to others about his calling. Surely if one accepts that there is a calling greater than the universal ethic, one should be able to articulate that belief. At some point, doesn't the Knight of Faith need to explain his actions, illogical as they are--as Kirk does?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, if we view these as roles in a stage production, I can see the importance of the aesthetic hero. (I don&#8217;t think we can learn much from an aesthetic hero, though.)</p>
<p>But what I <i>really</i> don&#8217;t understand is why Kierkegaard insists the Knight of Faith be unable to talk to others about his calling. Surely if one accepts that there is a calling greater than the universal ethic, one should be able to articulate that belief. At some point, doesn&#8217;t the Knight of Faith need to explain his actions, illogical as they are&#8211;as Kirk does?</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-761</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 04:12:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-761</guid>
					<description>I love the article, by the way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love the article, by the way.</p>
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		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-762</link>
		<author>cchrisr</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-762</guid>
					<description>Kierkegaard insists that the Knight of Faith is unable to talk to others about his calling because of a few things:
(1) it is illogical/unethical
(2) for him to speak would mean that he leaves the paradox of faith
(3) his encounter with the Other (i.e. God) is so radical that he cannot even begin to explain it
Unlike &lt;i&gt;Star Trek&lt;/i&gt; (and this is why it isn't the greatest example), the Knight of Faith is never in a position different from above so that he could explain it in such a way that others would understand.  The Knight of Faith becomes a person foreign to us all because his life is thrown within the paradox of faith.  For him to leave that paradox would be a weakness in one way or another (to side with the ethical, cowardice, to reject the ethical, murderous).
From Kierkegaard:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Abraham cannot speak, for he cannot utter the word which explains all (that is, not so that it is intelligible), he cannot say that it is a test, and a test of such a sort, be it noted, that the ethical is the temptation.  He who is so situated is an emigrant from the sphere of the universal.  But the next word he is still less able to utter.  For, as was sufficiently set forth earlier, Abraham makes two movements: he makes the infinite movement of resignation and gives up Isaac (this no one can understand because it is a private venture); but in the next place, he makes the movement of faith every instant.  This is his comfort, for he says: "But yet this will not come to pass, or, if it does come to pass, then the Lord will give me a new Isaac, by virtue viz. of the absurd."  The tragic hero does at last get to the end of the story.  Iphigenia [Agamemnon's daughter] bows to her father's resolution, she herself makes the infinite movement of resignation, and now they are on good terms with one another.  She can understand Agamemnon because his undertaking expresses the universal.  If on the other hand Agamemnon were to say to her, "In spite of the fact that the deity demands thee as a sacrifice, it might yet be possible that he did not demand it - by virtue viz. of the absurd," he would that very instant become unintelligible to Iphigenia.  If he could say this by virtue of human calculation, Iphigenia would surely understand him, but from that it would follow that Agamemnon had not made the infinite movement of resignation, and so he is not a hero, and so the utterance of the seer is a sea-captain's tale and the whole occurrence a vaudeville.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kierkegaard insists that the Knight of Faith is unable to talk to others about his calling because of a few things:<br />
(1) it is illogical/unethical<br />
(2) for him to speak would mean that he leaves the paradox of faith<br />
(3) his encounter with the Other (i.e. God) is so radical that he cannot even begin to explain it<br />
Unlike <i>Star Trek</i> (and this is why it isn&#8217;t the greatest example), the Knight of Faith is never in a position different from above so that he could explain it in such a way that others would understand.  The Knight of Faith becomes a person foreign to us all because his life is thrown within the paradox of faith.  For him to leave that paradox would be a weakness in one way or another (to side with the ethical, cowardice, to reject the ethical, murderous).<br />
From Kierkegaard:</p>
<blockquote><p>Abraham cannot speak, for he cannot utter the word which explains all (that is, not so that it is intelligible), he cannot say that it is a test, and a test of such a sort, be it noted, that the ethical is the temptation.  He who is so situated is an emigrant from the sphere of the universal.  But the next word he is still less able to utter.  For, as was sufficiently set forth earlier, Abraham makes two movements: he makes the infinite movement of resignation and gives up Isaac (this no one can understand because it is a private venture); but in the next place, he makes the movement of faith every instant.  This is his comfort, for he says: &#8220;But yet this will not come to pass, or, if it does come to pass, then the Lord will give me a new Isaac, by virtue viz. of the absurd.&#8221;  The tragic hero does at last get to the end of the story.  Iphigenia [Agamemnon&#8217;s daughter] bows to her father&#8217;s resolution, she herself makes the infinite movement of resignation, and now they are on good terms with one another.  She can understand Agamemnon because his undertaking expresses the universal.  If on the other hand Agamemnon were to say to her, &#8220;In spite of the fact that the deity demands thee as a sacrifice, it might yet be possible that he did not demand it - by virtue viz. of the absurd,&#8221; he would that very instant become unintelligible to Iphigenia.  If he could say this by virtue of human calculation, Iphigenia would surely understand him, but from that it would follow that Agamemnon had not made the infinite movement of resignation, and so he is not a hero, and so the utterance of the seer is a sea-captain&#8217;s tale and the whole occurrence a vaudeville.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-763</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 14:40:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-763</guid>
					<description>OK. So to be a Knight of Faith, the calling must be incapable of being articulated by humans. Why, though? The defintion seems arbitrary. Apparently, remaining silent preserves the paradox of faith. But why does speaking destroy the paradox? I think Kierkegaard is just making this up. The storytelling doesn't get any better by enforcing an arbitrary silence on the Knight of Faith.

(And don't tell me to go read Kierkegaard. I am fully capable of judging the quality of his complete works based on the few quotations posted on this website.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK. So to be a Knight of Faith, the calling must be incapable of being articulated by humans. Why, though? The defintion seems arbitrary. Apparently, remaining silent preserves the paradox of faith. But why does speaking destroy the paradox? I think Kierkegaard is just making this up. The storytelling doesn&#8217;t get any better by enforcing an arbitrary silence on the Knight of Faith.</p>
<p>(And don&#8217;t tell me to go read Kierkegaard. I am fully capable of judging the quality of his complete works based on the few quotations posted on this website.)</p>
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		<title>By: cchrisr</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-764</link>
		<author>cchrisr</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:07:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-764</guid>
					<description>Speaking intelligibly of something requires understanding of it.  One cannot understand the Infinite, the Absolute, or the Other (i.e. God).  For the Knight of Faith to speak intelligibly of his calling would imply that he understands it.  He can surely say words, but they are completely foreign to us in the universal/ethical.  Kierkegaard isn't enforcing silence, but rather the Knight of Faith is in such a unique position that he cannot be admired.  Throughout &lt;i&gt;Fear and Trembling&lt;/i&gt;, Kierkegaard says that he cannot understand Abraham, only acknowledge him.
I think my next post in this series may be helpful to your response because it will move us into the philosophy of difference (and we'll start outlining difference in itself) and that'll make Kierkegaard's "silence" more understandable.  It is no coincidence that the pseudonymous author Kierkegaard choose was "Johannes &lt;i&gt;Silentio&lt;/i&gt;."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking intelligibly of something requires understanding of it.  One cannot understand the Infinite, the Absolute, or the Other (i.e. God).  For the Knight of Faith to speak intelligibly of his calling would imply that he understands it.  He can surely say words, but they are completely foreign to us in the universal/ethical.  Kierkegaard isn&#8217;t enforcing silence, but rather the Knight of Faith is in such a unique position that he cannot be admired.  Throughout <i>Fear and Trembling</i>, Kierkegaard says that he cannot understand Abraham, only acknowledge him.<br />
I think my next post in this series may be helpful to your response because it will move us into the philosophy of difference (and we&#8217;ll start outlining difference in itself) and that&#8217;ll make Kierkegaard&#8217;s &#8220;silence&#8221; more understandable.  It is no coincidence that the pseudonymous author Kierkegaard choose was &#8220;Johannes <i>Silentio</i>.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Jew</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-765</link>
		<author>Jew</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 15:21:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-765</guid>
					<description>We can't understand the infinite, but we can understand and speak about the concept of the infinite. I think Kierkegaard gives mankind short shrift if he thinks we cannot speak intelligibly about a calling that supersedes the universal ethic. I look forward to reading your next article. Maybe that will explain things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We can&#8217;t understand the infinite, but we can understand and speak about the concept of the infinite. I think Kierkegaard gives mankind short shrift if he thinks we cannot speak intelligibly about a calling that supersedes the universal ethic. I look forward to reading your next article. Maybe that will explain things.</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan</title>
		<link>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-766</link>
		<author>Bryan</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2007 17:01:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/tragedy-and-faith/#comment-766</guid>
					<description>Part of the reason that a Knight of Faith cannot talk about his place becasue faith is a personal thing that one must experience to understand.  From what I've &lt;a href="http://bugizzy.googlepages.com/KnightofFaith.pdf" rel="nofollow"&gt;written in the past on this&lt;/a&gt;:

&lt;blockquote&gt;A person cannot give their faith to another, and it is therefore difficult to imagine a person understanding another's faith.  Kierkegaard makes the point as follows; “When a man enters upon the way, in a certain sense the hard way of the tragic hero, many will be able to give him counsel; to him who follows the narrow way of faith no one can give counsel, him no one can understand.” (Fear and Trembling, 65).  Although we are part of each other's existence, we each live our own existence.  When we enter into faith Kierkegaard here seems to suggest that we embrace our own existence to an extent that only we ourselves know what to do with it, and therefore because he who has moved beyond the universal can no longer look for advice from within the universal, but only from what is outside of the universal in the particular.  Therefore the knight of faith can only look to himself because only he understands (we may assume, although Kierkegaard does not explicitly state it, that God could also provide counsel as He is all knowing) his existence.  &lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the reason that a Knight of Faith cannot talk about his place becasue faith is a personal thing that one must experience to understand.  From what I&#8217;ve <a href="http://bugizzy.googlepages.com/KnightofFaith.pdf" rel="nofollow">written in the past on this</a>:</p>
<blockquote><p>A person cannot give their faith to another, and it is therefore difficult to imagine a person understanding another&#8217;s faith.  Kierkegaard makes the point as follows; “When a man enters upon the way, in a certain sense the hard way of the tragic hero, many will be able to give him counsel; to him who follows the narrow way of faith no one can give counsel, him no one can understand.” (Fear and Trembling, 65).  Although we are part of each other&#8217;s existence, we each live our own existence.  When we enter into faith Kierkegaard here seems to suggest that we embrace our own existence to an extent that only we ourselves know what to do with it, and therefore because he who has moved beyond the universal can no longer look for advice from within the universal, but only from what is outside of the universal in the particular.  Therefore the knight of faith can only look to himself because only he understands (we may assume, although Kierkegaard does not explicitly state it, that God could also provide counsel as He is all knowing) his existence.  </p></blockquote>
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