Comments on: Faith Problems, 3 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/ Tue, 06 Jan 2009 10:53:36 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.3 By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-637 Jasen Tracy Tue, 07 Aug 2007 16:10:28 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-637 This "knight of faith" thing reminds me of Raskolnikov's "super-human" in Crime and Punishment (although it didn't work out for him). Seems like it'd be a very easy idea to abuse. This “knight of faith” thing reminds me of Raskolnikov’s “super-human” in Crime and Punishment (although it didn’t work out for him).

Seems like it’d be a very easy idea to abuse.

]]> By: cchrisr http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-646 cchrisr Thu, 09 Aug 2007 13:18:23 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-646 How do you mean "abuse"? How do you mean “abuse”?

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-647 Jasen Tracy Thu, 09 Aug 2007 16:35:26 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-647 Well, the basic idea seems to be (please correct me if I'm wrong) that the "KoF" faces choices that he must resolve without help from anyone else or universal ethical principals. I understand that in Abraham's case, had he told anyone about his situation they would have said he was mistaken and that God couldn't possibly have told him that because murder is clearly wrong and God wouldn't ask him to do that. But if people think it's right for them to make such decisions without or against the "universal ethic" they're going to be likely to do bad things for selfish reasons, not for concern of "something higher." That's what I meant by easy to abuse. Well, the basic idea seems to be (please correct me if I’m wrong) that the “KoF” faces choices that he must resolve without help from anyone else or universal ethical principals.

I understand that in Abraham’s case, had he told anyone about his situation they would have said he was mistaken and that God couldn’t possibly have told him that because murder is clearly wrong and God wouldn’t ask him to do that.

But if people think it’s right for them to make such decisions without or against the “universal ethic” they’re going to be likely to do bad things for selfish reasons, not for concern of “something higher.” That’s what I meant by easy to abuse.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-648 Darius Thu, 09 Aug 2007 18:20:17 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-648 For example, you get people doing things because they claim that God told them to do them, like killing abortion doctors, etc. This is not to say that God can't talk to someone, but they should always check everything against Scripture. Just as you should check your interpretation of a Biblical text with other portions of the Bible, you should also verify that a vision jives with the Bible. For example, you get people doing things because they claim that God told them to do them, like killing abortion doctors, etc.

This is not to say that God can’t talk to someone, but they should always check everything against Scripture. Just as you should check your interpretation of a Biblical text with other portions of the Bible, you should also verify that a vision jives with the Bible.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-649 Jasen Tracy Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:39:24 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-649 But look at it from Abraham's view. True he didn't have any scripture, but he likely knew that murder was wrong and that child sacrifice was an evil pagan rite. But look at it from Abraham’s view. True he didn’t have any scripture, but he likely knew that murder was wrong and that child sacrifice was an evil pagan rite.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-650 Darius Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:58:31 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-650 But he at least knew that the spirit with which he was conversing was God's Spirit. In the case of someone today feeling like God is talking to him, he should test the spirit to see if it is of God or of Satan. One obvious way would be checking what the spirit says versus what the Bible says, but in a case where the spirit appears to be telling you to do something that contradicts the Bible and/or what you know to be traditionally right and wrong, something further is required to test the spirit. But he at least knew that the spirit with which he was conversing was God’s Spirit. In the case of someone today feeling like God is talking to him, he should test the spirit to see if it is of God or of Satan. One obvious way would be checking what the spirit says versus what the Bible says, but in a case where the spirit appears to be telling you to do something that contradicts the Bible and/or what you know to be traditionally right and wrong, something further is required to test the spirit.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-651 Jasen Tracy Thu, 09 Aug 2007 21:50:33 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-651 Like when Ezekiel balked at God's command to bake food with human excrement (Ezekiel 4)? Or when, in a vision, Peter refused to eat unclean animals at Gods' command (Acts 10)? Both the based their decision on the scripture they had. Like when Ezekiel balked at God’s command to bake food with human excrement (Ezekiel 4)?

Or when, in a vision, Peter refused to eat unclean animals at Gods’ command (Acts 10)?

Both the based their decision on the scripture they had.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-652 Darius Thu, 09 Aug 2007 22:52:12 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-652 In the first case, God relented. That is not to say that Ezekiel "corrected" God, but that God was perhaps testing him or, because of the extreme symbolism involved, was willing to ignore some OT laws for the sake of getting the message across (just as Jesus did with the Sabbath). However, when Ezekiel noticed how unclean it was according to the Mosaic law, God allowed an alternative so that his conscience wouldn't have that incident as a stumbling block. In the second case, Peter was rebuked and then shown the meaning of his vision almost immediately afterward. He was misunderstanding Scripture (and Jesus' teachings) and had to be corrected. Getting back to "testing the spirit"... another way to test it would be to confide with a strong Christian believer who is solid in his faith. Most modern-day problems that arise from "talking to God" consist of lone people not bouncing what they perceive as God's Will and Spirit off of other brothers in Christ. For example, my pastor, when I was in high school, had a woman come to him and tell him that she had a spirit of God that could talk through her. To test this spirit, my pastor, a witness, and the woman gathered together to pray. Very soon, the spirit came forth, but it was not a godly one. She began speaking in a very low man's voice and wouldn't acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. My pastor and the witness prayed over her and drove out the demon. Had she not confided that spirit in another Christian, it could have begun to control her more and more. In the first case, God relented. That is not to say that Ezekiel “corrected” God, but that God was perhaps testing him or, because of the extreme symbolism involved, was willing to ignore some OT laws for the sake of getting the message across (just as Jesus did with the Sabbath). However, when Ezekiel noticed how unclean it was according to the Mosaic law, God allowed an alternative so that his conscience wouldn’t have that incident as a stumbling block.

In the second case, Peter was rebuked and then shown the meaning of his vision almost immediately afterward. He was misunderstanding Scripture (and Jesus’ teachings) and had to be corrected.

Getting back to “testing the spirit”… another way to test it would be to confide with a strong Christian believer who is solid in his faith. Most modern-day problems that arise from “talking to God” consist of lone people not bouncing what they perceive as God’s Will and Spirit off of other brothers in Christ. For example, my pastor, when I was in high school, had a woman come to him and tell him that she had a spirit of God that could talk through her. To test this spirit, my pastor, a witness, and the woman gathered together to pray. Very soon, the spirit came forth, but it was not a godly one. She began speaking in a very low man’s voice and wouldn’t acknowledge Jesus as Messiah. My pastor and the witness prayed over her and drove out the demon. Had she not confided that spirit in another Christian, it could have begun to control her more and more.

]]> By: cchrisr http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-653 cchrisr Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:24:13 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-653 Jasen, I think you are correct from on standpoint that it is open to abuse, but I think Kierkegaard would say that they are not acting as true knights of faith because the action called for by God is self-sacrificial and personal. This is why Abraham going to sacrifice <i>his own</i> son as an example of the KoF and not Moses or Joshua. Darius, This idea of "test the spirit" is very much embedded in American evangelicalism. If Abraham followed those steps, he would have never listened to God and gone to Mt Moriah. This is one Kierekgaard's points in that the Knight of Faith has no one to turn to for help because the vast majority of us (myself and Kierkegaard included) aren't knights of faith. Furthermore, even if they were, they still wouldn't be able to understand the problem because the Knight of Faith is unable to coherently explain the situation he or she is in to another person. The KoF is unable to speak. This is why Kierkegaard says that he can't understand Abraham, only acknowledge and extol him. Jasen,
I think you are correct from on standpoint that it is open to abuse, but I think Kierkegaard would say that they are not acting as true knights of faith because the action called for by God is self-sacrificial and personal. This is why Abraham going to sacrifice his own son as an example of the KoF and not Moses or Joshua.
Darius,
This idea of “test the spirit” is very much embedded in American evangelicalism. If Abraham followed those steps, he would have never listened to God and gone to Mt Moriah. This is one Kierekgaard’s points in that the Knight of Faith has no one to turn to for help because the vast majority of us (myself and Kierkegaard included) aren’t knights of faith. Furthermore, even if they were, they still wouldn’t be able to understand the problem because the Knight of Faith is unable to coherently explain the situation he or she is in to another person. The KoF is unable to speak. This is why Kierkegaard says that he can’t understand Abraham, only acknowledge and extol him.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-654 Darius Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:49:22 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-654 Chris, unfortunately that is not correct. Abraham was able to test the spirit, in that he knew he was conversing with God, and not some figment of his imagination or worse, a demon. He had numerous occasions to "test the spirit" in his life, and in every case, God made Himself known. If a spirit is of God, He will make it known to us, as he did with Abraham and Peter. Chris, unfortunately that is not correct. Abraham was able to test the spirit, in that he knew he was conversing with God, and not some figment of his imagination or worse, a demon. He had numerous occasions to “test the spirit” in his life, and in every case, God made Himself known. If a spirit is of God, He will make it known to us, as he did with Abraham and Peter.

]]> By: Jasen Tracy http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-655 Jasen Tracy Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:55:47 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-655 cchrisr, thanks for that clarification. And I did not mean to apply that simply because the idea has great potential for abuse that it is necessarily invalid. cchrisr, thanks for that clarification. And I did not mean to apply that simply because the idea has great potential for abuse that it is necessarily invalid.

]]> By: Darius http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-656 Darius Fri, 10 Aug 2007 02:01:47 +0000 http://zealfortruth.org/2007/08/faith-problems-3/#comment-656 That said, I don't believe there is the same amount of "God's Spirit" openly communicating in the same manner as in portions of the Old Testament and the early church (this doesn't include the Holy Spirit, which is in all believers). I think this is for at least three reasons: partly because God wanted Himself shown in the Scriptures as actively communicating with His followers; partly because He had to directly talk to Abraham and his descendants to make certain that they had His laws and understood Him; and partly due to the need to spread the Gospel in the NT. Likewise with miracles, we don't seem to see as many today (except in some third world countries which are just now getting the gospel in their tongues) and I think this isn't just due to the Western church having less faith than the early church (though this could very well be part of it). I feel that one main reason that the Western world doesn't appear to have as many miracles (though, appearances can be deceiving since so many "miracles" are notched up as medical marvels, mistakes, and the like) is that miracles are primarily a method to help spread the Gospel to unbelievers. Believers should not need miracles (though they are helpful to strengthen our faith) like the Lost need miracles to occasionally draw them and show God's power. That said, I don’t believe there is the same amount of “God’s Spirit” openly communicating in the same manner as in portions of the Old Testament and the early church (this doesn’t include the Holy Spirit, which is in all believers). I think this is for at least three reasons: partly because God wanted Himself shown in the Scriptures as actively communicating with His followers; partly because He had to directly talk to Abraham and his descendants to make certain that they had His laws and understood Him; and partly due to the need to spread the Gospel in the NT.

Likewise with miracles, we don’t seem to see as many today (except in some third world countries which are just now getting the gospel in their tongues) and I think this isn’t just due to the Western church having less faith than the early church (though this could very well be part of it). I feel that one main reason that the Western world doesn’t appear to have as many miracles (though, appearances can be deceiving since so many “miracles” are notched up as medical marvels, mistakes, and the like) is that miracles are primarily a method to help spread the Gospel to unbelievers. Believers should not need miracles (though they are helpful to strengthen our faith) like the Lost need miracles to occasionally draw them and show God’s power.

]]>